Winter fun and car batteries!

[sc00ter]

So I run front/rear dash cams in both of my cars. My Honda Fit got clipped in the street and obviously no one left a note AND my dash cam didn't catch it! The camera was set for a whopping 6 hours of recording after being parked. So I went into the menu and set the dash cam to record up to 24 hours while parked. To pull this off I had to lower the recording voltage to cut-out at 11 volts. I go to start the car after sitting a few days and I have a dead battery. I check it with a volt meter and guess what, it was at 11 volts. So...

I pull the old school AMG lead-acid jump box out of the hatch and the voltage was to low to jump the car. I forgot to plug it in every 3 to 6 months so it can "condition" the battery. Okay, I have a lithium jump box in the Subaru.

I go grab that one and hook it up to the Fit battery. It runs a quick diagnostic, says 11 volts detected and ask it I want to jump it. I press the jump button and the Fit starts right up. I immediately pull the lithium jump box off the Fit and it almost instantly swells to twice it size, cracks it case open and gets toasty! Yeah, a lithium battery grenade! I stuck the jump box in a milk crate cage in the middle of the backyard until I can safely get rid of it! I paid $150 for that jump box (granted, 8 years ago) and this is the second time I used it! Yes, it was cold when I grabbed it but it was hooked up correctly according to the instructions.

So I go and charge the AMG lead-acid jump box and it wont take a charge over 3 out of 6 bars. It barely charges to 12 volts MAX. It also lost its wind-up power to jump a car. I paid roughly $180 for that jump box 4 years ago. I figured that the AMG jump box should have lasted for much longer. So now I have to look for my old jumper cables and beg for a jump if I need one.

I did change the dash cams in both cars to shutdown at 12.4 volts so they wont run my batteries down. These cars get driven very little and will sit for a minimum of a week for up to a month. The best part of this whole battery jump box drama? Both cars have very expensive Interstate batteries in them. But if you run any battery down to 11 volts your car wont start.

Anyone have good luck with portable jump boxes? I'll list the brands when I get to them as the one is in milk crate jail and the other is in the garage right now.

 

[Chargeride]

There was a youtube video out last week describing mass failures of them.

 

[6zfshdb]

I use a Noco and have had great results. Over 111,000 reviews on Amazon with a 4.6 star overall rating.

Amazon.com

Noco offers larger models, but the price goes up considerably with increased capacity.

 

[PCeBiker]

I'm gunna build a couple 54V jump boxes for my ebike,..

I need 3 more 9V batteries and 5 more packs of Lithium button cells.

The 9V version is easier to build, cheaper, and snaps together like Lego, so I'm gunna build it first.

I want to see how fast I can start a fire with the different 9V options available.

There's regular old-school Carbon, Alkaline, and the expensive Lithium versions to test.

I'm thinking the Lithium version might actually get the wheel spinning in the air, and blow up the best?, but all three versions should be able to charge my ebike battery through the charge port?

 

[PCeBiker]

There was a youtube video out last week describing mass failures of them.

I'm expecting to be Really Impressed with a Spectacular Failure and

 

[Slaphappygamer]

I use a Noco and have had great results. Over 111,000 reviews on Amazon with a 4.6 star overall rating.

View attachment 189775

Amazon.com

Noco offers larger models, but the price goes up considerably with increased capacity.

I use that one too. I've had it for a couple of years now. It's great!..............as long as you remember to charge it every 2-3 months. But that would happen with most battery jumpers like this one.

 

[PCeBiker]

So I go and charge the AMG lead-acid jump box and it wont take a charge over 3 out of 6 bars. It barely charges to 12 volts MAX.

My old POS E-bike has three 12V AGM batteries in series to get 36V.

I bought an automatic 36V battery charger for lead acid batteries so now I leave my e-bike plugged in all the time so it's always fully charged, which is the best way to store a lead acid battery.

And, a discharged lead acid battery can freeze at only -3°C.
A fully charged lead acid battery is good to over -30°C.



Maybe a small Deep Cycle Marine battery is your answer to power your dash cam?
You can just plug it into your cigarette lighter if you're lighter socket stays live when your ignition is turn off.

(My car is old and has both a cigarette lighter and a well used Ashtray. I don't know what they call the outlet port nowadays?)

 

[sc00ter]

I tried to post the pictures of the offending battery jump boxes but the website said the picture file was to large? So for now I'll list the models:

Schumacher Model # SL1316 Lith-Ion Jump Starter, Fuel Pack and Backup Power. This is the one that the battery swelled up and it got toasty. It's still in the milk crate prison until I can dispose of it. This came from O'Reilly's Auto Parts in 2018.

Super Start AMG Power Pack 1000 peak battery amps. This one stopped taking a charge. It's stuck on 3 bars out of 5 and the 3 bars won't start jump start a Honda Fit. I might pull this jump box apart and see whats wrong. This one came from AutoZone 3 years ago.

I did buy the Noco Boost Plus GB40 today. I told my wife I'll just make it a habit to bring it in when there is a deep freeze or super heat wave threat. I'll also make sure I toss it on the charger every few months. I did find it weird that the Noco came with NO INSTRUCTIONS of any kind. The package was factory sealed. This one came from AutoZone. One year warranty without the option to extend it.

 

[PCeBiker]

I might pull this jump box apart and see whats wrong.

I found out from my cousin (an electrical engineer) that I could leave a lead acid battery connected to 13.8 VDC and leave it connected continuously and it would keep it fully charged.
So I checked the output of my original charger. It was 13.8V so I just left it connected and two days later my batteries were cooked.

They were all swelled up and obviously wrecked.
(An absorbed glass mat battery is just a regular lead acid battery with fiberglass weave between the plates that are soaked in acid to make the battery spill proof so they can be installed at any angle.)

I bought 3 new 10 AH batteries (that were nowhere near the 10 AH as labeled) and the automatic charger for them and they have been fine for ~10 years now.


I had a "smart" charger that wouldn't charge a dead battery.
It thought that the current draw from a dead battery was a short circuit and wouldn't charge the battery.

I had to use this old-school charger from the late 70's that doesn't try to be smart at all.

It says "solid state" which just means it was upgraded from the earlier vacuum tube version I guess.

I can short circuit the terminals and it goes to maximum output without blowing up or starting on fire.

I had a car battery that was sitting on a shelf for about ten years and was completely dead.
I hooked up the charger and the needle barely moved at all?
The battery was at something like 10 volts and wasn't drawing any current?

I just left it hooked up and it slowly started to draw current, and I managed to charge the battery.

I gave the battery to a freind and it managed to start his car so he could sell it, but I don't what happened after he sold the car?

Apparently, you can only kill a regular car battery a couple times before it's toast.

 

[6zfshdb]

I tried to post the pictures of the offending battery jump boxes but the website said the picture file was to large? So for now I'll list the models:

Schumacher Model # SL1316 Lith-Ion Jump Starter, Fuel Pack and Backup Power. This is the one that the battery swelled up and it got toasty. It's still in the milk crate prison until I can dispose of it. This came from O'Reilly's Auto Parts in 2018.

Super Start AMG Power Pack 1000 peak battery amps. This one stopped taking a charge. It's stuck on 3 bars out of 5 and the 3 bars won't start jump start a Honda Fit. I might pull this jump box apart and see whats wrong. This one came from AutoZone 3 years ago.

I did buy the Noco Boost Plus GB40 today. I told my wife I'll just make it a habit to bring it in when there is a deep freeze or super heat wave threat. I'll also make sure I toss it on the charger every few months. I did find it weird that the Noco came with NO INSTRUCTIONS of any kind. The package was factory sealed. This one came from AutoZone. One year warranty without the option to extend it.

Here's a link to the Noco manual downloads page:

Downloads page

no.co

Keep in mind, the GB40 is not designed to start a vehicle with a completely dead battery. It works very well as a booster for weak ones that won't start a vehicle on their own.

 

[PCeBiker]

I use that one too. I've had it for a couple of years now. It's great!..............as long as you remember to charge it every 2-3 months.

That's the same as my rechargeable air compressor.
I learned about charging it regularly shortly after I got it and it's been fine for almost two years now.

@6zfshdb ,..
My compressor has 3 cells in series so it will run off 12 volts.

I figure that it's essentially a boost charger if I could feed directly from the cells inside, but that Noco is rated 12V 1000 amps?

My 48V 25Ah ebike battery has five 21700 50E Samsung cells in parallel to help push more amps, but the battery only has a 30 amp BMS.

How can that Noco put out 1000 amps without blowing up?
Is it different battery chemistry or something?

Does Noco mean No Cobalt in the mix so it's not the same as an NCM battery like in my e-bike battery?

 

[Slaphappygamer]

Given the size of the noco, they may use some type of headway cell. Those usually have a high discharge rate.

 

[PCeBiker]

Here's a link to the Noco manual downloads page:

Downloads page

no.co

Found It ,..

I don't get it ??

 

[6zfshdb]

I don't either. I never did understand the ratings on these boosters.
The battery inside the thing is quite small and as they say, you can't get blood from a turnip.
Still, they seem to work somehow. Over 102,000, 4 and 5 star ratings on Amazon must mean something.

 

[PCeBiker]

Found It,..

BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion

Become familiar with the many different types of lithium-ion batteries: Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more.

batteryuniversity.com

 

[spokewrench]

So I go and charge the AMG lead-acid jump box and it wont take a charge over 3 out of 6 bars. It barely charges to 12 volts MAX. It also lost its wind-up power to jump a car. I paid roughly $180 for that jump box 4 years ago. I figured that the AMG jump box should have lasted for much longer. So now I have to look for my old jumper cables and beg for a jump if I need one.

I did change the dash cams in both cars to shutdown at 12.4 volts so they wont run my batteries down. These cars get driven very little and will sit for a minimum of a week for up to a month. The best part of this whole battery jump box drama? Both cars have very expensive Interstate batteries in them. But if you run any battery down to 11 volts your car wont start.

Anyone have good luck with portable jump boxes? I'll list the brands when I get to them as the one is in milk crate jail and the other is in the garage right now.

Your AGM battery may be OK. I bought one for my riding mower 8 years ago. My electronic tester said it had a lot more cold cranking amps than advertised. It calculated this by measuring internal resistance. As if it hasn't aged in 8 years, it still shows that low internal resistance.

However, if it has been sitting for weeks, it may fail to start the engine although the voltage looks good, and a smart charger won't charge it. It reminds me of the old advice for a conventional battery in cold weather: you may get a lot more cranking amps if you run the headlights a few seconds to stir up the electrolyte against the plates. My mower doesn't have lights, but if I put it on a dumb charger for a couple of minutes, I can charge the battery with a smart charger or just start the engine. Maybe you can get your battery charged.

 

[6zfshdb]

you have to trick the smart chargers sometimes,I much prefer the old analog battery chargers and they are getting hard to find.

I do too, and they are indeed getting harder to find.

One of the reasons is, these old style chargers should not be used with many lithium batteries. These days, golf carts, riding mowers, and an assortment of mobility devices are using large lithium batteries. Using an "old style" charger here, instead of one designed for the purpose, can lead to a disaster.

 

[sc00ter]

I got the Super Start AGM Power Pack to come back to life! I slowly took the charge down and plugged it in for a charge. Did this 3 times and eventually all the status LED's came on. So back in the Fit it will go (along with jumper cables just incase it fails again).

 

[spokewrench]

Fifty years ago I acquired a copy of the BCI manual on maintaining lead acid batteries, with all kinds of stuff about design, specific gravity, state-of-charge voltages, and charge rates. I had a 6-amp and a 1-amp charger. Often, an alternator wouldn't keep a battery charged, especially in winter. Even with the trickle charger, charging could make a battery worse. I figured voltage was the problem, so I bought a 10-amp "automatic" (voltage regulated) charger with a switch for trickle charging. Charging could still make a battery worse.

Twenty-five years ago, a neighbor bought a 2-year battery for his car. It quit in 2002, so he replaced it and for some reason put the defunct battery on his back steps. Two years later, another neighbor was throwing out an antique Sears battery charger. Curious, I asked for it. I didn't want to risk my car battery, so I used the defunct one from my neighbor's steps. I figured that on top of being junked, it had sat sulfating for two years, so it probably wouldn't even accept current. At least I could see if the strange charger would put voltage on the terminals.

It made the junk battery almost like new. It outperformed the one in my car, so I swapped them. With a scope, I found that it charged in pulses, 8ms IIRC. Evidently, the simple circuit sampled voltage between pulses. As that terminal voltage increased, the time between pulses increased.

Every few weeks, I'd put the strange charger on it overnight. For 9 more years, that battery performed faithfully!

I looked up the 1955 patent. The inventor had fork lifts in mind. Like me, he'd discovered that DC charging is detrimental. That's why chargers had timers as well as voltage regulators. His could be left on a battery indefinitely without harm. Lately, researchers have found out why. DC charging causes unwanted chemical reactions. Those unwanted reactions can reverse between pulses. When my battery was junk, the pulses had broken down the lead sulfate without accumulating undesired byproducts.

The antique was labeled 8 amps, and the meter read to 8 amps, but it behaved as a trickle charger; maybe after 50 years a capacitor was bad. I bought a smart charger. A scope showed that the width of the pulses varied, rather than the time between them. It had no gauge, so I monitored it with a wattmeter.

Once I asked a neighbor about a van that had sat in her yard six months. She said her son had run out of gas, poured in more, and run the battery down trying to start it. A car battery that had been run down and left that long sounded unsalvageable, but the pulses from my smart charger brought it back.

Another neighbor had restored a 1955 Pontiac. The battery would run down from sitting or from a bulb drawing current. It would also run down trying to crank the engine with stale gas and an automatic choke that didn’t work. He’d use a regulated analog charger. He’d forget and leave it charging for days at a time. I told him that was bad for the battery. I offered to let him use my smart charger. He wasn’t interested.

One day it was too weak to turn the engine although the voltage showed it was half charged. I figured my smart charger would bring it back. The watt meter indicated the battery was taking 2 amps. After 48 hours, it was still pulling the same wattage. I shut it off and found that the battery wouldn’t do anything.

This was the first time it appeared that my smart charger had made a battery worse. I tried again 4 days later. This time it took a 6 amp charge. Like a new battery, it would maintain over 11 volts while cranking that big engine indefinitely.

IIRC, the grids of so-called maintenance-free batteries have cadmium. DC charging can cause the cadmium to migrate to the surface of the plates, where it interferes with the flow of ions. My theory is that pulse charging had broken up the undesired cadmium compounds, but the battery wouldn’t work until the cadmium had migrated back into the grids.

I have two smart chargers now. Their percent reading is not reliable. Often, my watt meter will show the current slowing way down although I know the battery isn’t fully charged. If I let the battery rest a few minutes or an hour, it will charge normally. My theory is that ions or something can accumulate along plates, and the microprocessor won’t charge normally until I let them dissipate.

Both smart chargers have AGM settings, and both have trouble with my AGM mower battery. My 1955 pulse charger with the analog gage will top it off beautifully. I guess that’s why the battery performs like new after 8 years.

My plain dumb charger has worked fine since I replaced the full-wave bridge rectifier in the 1970s, Mostly I put it on just long enough to get a battery’s electrolyte stirred up. I wish I could see what my "dumb" 1955 pulse charger could do if it worked like new. They don’t seem to make pulse chargers without microprocessors anymore.