Why Zen ?

[E-Wheels]

I watched the video, but still don't understand how the whole system works. I'll have to do more research. Getting rid of the chain is a very cool idea, though.

One problem with a total electric system is there is no redundancy in case of a failure
A bike having a chain or belt drive can still be ridden manually even if the electrical system is inoperable
These videos show how it operates

 

[Explorer-1]

May I know why you think such a drive is important?
I don't know if there is enough market demand for such a product. If you know of anyone who has done such a thing, I would be interested in learning more about it.

Possibly the ultimate in reliability, belt might be better than chain, but no mechanical drive train seems the most reliable. The possible variation of cadence and resistance would allow for very precise tuning of the pedals to the individual, for capturing the maximum power output of the rider, regardless of instantaneous speed. Lots of options, and I like the idea of removing the drive train, solves many problems. Of course the first ones may be more primitive. Market, well maybe not now, not even thinking about market, just that I want one

 

[Explorer-1]

Maybe something like the Bike2 project

Interesting; I will look at this, never heard of it.

 

[vincent]

I want this!

this looks like the future to me!

 

[Explorer-1]

One problem with a total electric system is there is no redundancy in case of a failure
A bike having a chain or belt drive can still be ridden manually even if the electrical system is inoperable
These videos show how it operates

Not a real issue, many electronic bikes can't pedaled under many circumstances due to their weight if the electric was to fail, and many other failures are not redundant, you've just identified one partial redundancy., but there are many single points of failure. Electric drive bikes can have dual motors/batteries, although won't be lighter .

 

[vincent]

i agree with that, i might could pedal some of my bikes back home if a problem but probably not very far and it would not be fun
don think that would sway me as far the big advantages to a system like this

this may be less of an issue with 30-35lb ebikes than so many of the heavy ones where it would not matter anyway

 

[TomD]

Looks to be at least a 4 year old concept that hasn't seemed to go anywhere. Kind of gives me a chuckle similar to newbies that lament lack of regen braking on an ebike.

 

[Explorer-1]

Looks to be at least a 4 year old concept that hasn't seemed to go anywhere. Kind of gives me a chuckle similar to newbies that lament lack of regen braking on an ebike.

The concept is a lot older than that, but these people tried. There have been a lot of electric bikes prior to the ones we have today, somethings take time. We have a wonderful variety of motors, generators, good batteries, efficient wheels, good materials. May not go any where, but could be fun being a pioneer. With the components we have today the system loses in efficiency don't affect the overall system as much, and there are more use cases today and one bike or design does not have to solve all problems for everyone..

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

One problem with a total electric system is there is no redundancy in case of a failure
A bike having a chain or belt drive can still be ridden manually even if the electrical system is inoperable
These videos show how it operates

Thanks for sharing that. Looks very interesting.
Would love to test ride one and see how it feels to ride one for a few miles in different terrain.

Possibly the ultimate in reliability, belt might be better than chain, but no mechanical drive train seems the most reliable. The possible variation of cadence and resistance would allow for very precise tuning of the pedals to the individual, for capturing the maximum power output of the rider, regardless of instantaneous speed. Lots of options, and I like the idea of removing the drive train, solves many problems. Of course the first ones may be more primitive. Market, well maybe not now, not even thinking about market, just that I want one

While it may represent a very 'zen' way of E-biking. I worry it may be too complicated to implement in an effective and reliable way.
There are quite a lot of people who use E-bikes for exercise and health. So, by removing the drivetrain, 100% of the work is now done by a motor and this would necessitate more battery.
One could use some amount of regen to capture energy but overall, the whole systems extremely reliable and sensitive electronics and sensors.
If a company had surplus funds, this would be a great project to work on

 

[Explorer-1]

Thanks for sharing that. Looks very interesting.
Would love to test ride one and see how it feels to ride one for a few miles in different terrain.



While it may represent a very 'zen' way of E-biking. I worry it may be too complicated to implement in an effective and reliable way.
There are quite a lot of people who use E-bikes for exercise and health. So, by removing the drivetrain, 100% of the work is now done by a motor and this would necessitate more battery.
One could use some amount of regen to capture energy but overall, the whole systems extremely reliable and sensitive electronics and sensors.
If a company had surplus funds, this would be a great project to work on

Understood, just wanted to know if you happened to be testing something like this. Thanks for your reply.

It is not correct to say 100% of the work is being done by the motor. The rider is pedaling a generator and the same wattage the rider put into the drive drain is simply going into the generation of electricity (minus the differences in losses between the drive train and the electrical conversions). if a piñon drive or other transmission was still used between the cranks and the generator then they precise rider input tailoring could be achieved.

Anyway a big topic with lots of variables, but lots of possibilities.

 

[drewberz]

Understood, just wanted to know if you happened to be testing something like this. Thanks for your reply.

It is not correct to say 100% of the work is being done by the motor. The rider is pedaling a generator and the same wattage the rider put into the drive drain is simply going into the generation of electricity (minus the differences in losses between the drive train and the electrical conversions). if a piñon drive or other transmission was still used between the cranks and the generator then they precise rider input tailoring could be achieved.

Anyway a big topic with lots of variables, but lots of possibilities.

With a generator you lose a lot of efficiency over say a chain (high 90's) and the pedaling experience can be poor. Mechanical drivetrain is still much better. I think the concept is more appealing because it's all electric and seems to complement an e-bike, but in practice it solves for the wrong things at the great expense of others.

 

[troehrkasse]

you can report something like that to @troehrkasse sounds like there is a char minimum.

This is correct... but not for long! I'm upgrading the forums to use elasticsearch which will allow searching for shorter words... among other improvements.

I don't have a firm date for this upgrade yet, but should be within the next month

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

The US office of Zen will be located in Ashland, Oregon.
So, folks in the west coast may visit, test bikes and get to know everything about it. If we move to a different (larger space) in the future, I will be sure to update here.

Paul is intricately aware of the engineering behind bike frames, motors and batteries.
It is truly fantastic to have that expertise onboard. So, for those who were interested about the full suspension model with suspended rear rack ... it is coming ...
Lots of tests will be done in the coming months before the model will be launched.

 

[webcurl]

Quite a while ago you were looking into maybe suspended racks on a FS bike or something like that?
I may be wrong, maybe it's a rack design for hardtail?
Just wondering how it's going.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Quite a while ago you were looking into maybe suspended racks on a FS bike or something like that?
I may be wrong, maybe it's a rack design for hardtail?
Just wondering how it's going.

Thanks for checking-in.
We had to make a decision on what models to bring to the market. What people wanted was a reliable, high-quality commuter ~2K and that's what we did with the Shakti model.
Robust engineering of FS -commuter E-bike needs a lot of capital, testing before it can be sent to production and that would make us a niche product maker instead of something that the market really wants.

We should have decent funding by the end of this year to finalize the engineering design and send them to production. It was a regular year, we could have done but in the middle pandemic, things were quite difficult. It is one reason, we never took pre-orders or money from customers because we want to retain the trust for the long term.

 

[scottsdalecommuter]

Maybe something like the Bike2 project

Anyone know how to get in touch with this group of the chainless ebikes? I would like to ask for one on my bike commute to try out as a pilot user. I am in PHX which is flat as all get out so never shift gears on my 10 mile one way commute. My ideal e-bike would be light as possible since I live on 2nd floor apt, single speed, as few parts as possible including chain, at least 30 miles range, my current Aventon Pace 500 works great but would love lighter and simpler.

 

[Explorer-1]

Anyone know how to get in touch with this group of the chainless ebikes? I would like to ask for one on my bike commute to try out as a pilot user. I am in PHX which is flat as all get out so never shift gears on my 10 mile one way commute. My ideal e-bike would be light as possible since I live on 2nd floor apt, single speed, as few parts as possible including chain, at least 30 miles range, my current Aventon Pace 500 works great but would love lighter and simpler.

Hmmm. the email on their website does not work? Remember this company was started in 2011, the video is from 2016, and as the video says they are an OEM looking to sell top bike manufacturers, not end users.