When there's no dealer...

[Donny]

Well, as I understand it, Luna Cycle is selling everything they can get their hands on. That's the DIY side...

I have seen that they seem to be doing well, but like you said that is the DIY side of things. I had looked at doing that, but by time I priced out decent quality parts (stress decent there and not the cheapy $200 kits off eBay) and a cheap donor bike I was at the same price as a factory made bike (I'll admit that I'm basing that factory price off of what they are selling for in my area which is the aforementioned 50% off or more). If they were not on clearance in my area, then the DIY route would potentially still be a viable alternative. However, the DIY market isn't going to help the ebike industry if off the shelf bikes don't sell. The biggest hurdle, purely in my opinion, is the crazy prices they go for. How many people are going to go out and drop $3000 - $6000 for a bicycle? Granted, there are peddle bikes that cost more than that (which is also nuts), but still

 

[George S.]

The Bafang mid-drives are most of the DIY market. But the BBSHD jumps in price when you add the shift sensor and the chain ring.

The two premium DIY hubs are the Mac, from EM3ev, and the Golden Motor, from GM Canada or a limited selection from Luna.

It's a little hard to find a basic 36v battery, which the hubs can use. Eventually I think a 36v battery, maybe 12 ah, will be $250 or so. And the motors are around $400. I can find a used bike or maybe an online bike, around $300.

Right now, premium kits are selling, or pure performance kits like the Kinaye. The performance motors are reasonable, but you need a super premium battery pack to get an hour of riding.

 

[Jack Tyler]

"Court is good enough, now, to explain any bike in 20 minutes. I was impressed that even with the new Stromer, you could know the bike."

Funny; I had the exact same reaction @George S. I've been mining some older reviews now that our move to Bozeman has concluded and its time to make a buying decision. Perhaps one reason Court's reviews are better is because he's been dedicated (seemingly) full-time to this website & his review schedule more recently. But clearly repetition has produced impressively thorough video reviews in relatively modest, viewable segments. But it's more than that: He's improved the written stats section significantly and conditioned all us review-watchers now on how to anticipate & hoover up the whole review package efficiently - written text, where to look on the stats for the details of interest, the video review itself, and the Q&A at the bottom, to see if there's any scratches there which take care of remaining itches. We see it so often that it's easy to take for granted...but Court's stamina and ebullient presence alone is a marvel.

 

[George S.]

@Jack Tyler

They posted an Instagram picture of Court on the Radpower site. I wish they had framed it better, since the mottled industrial glass is much more interesting than the building in the background. But it shows the intensity. The Rad Mini was a nice campaign, a sell-out in a few hours.

He can get hundreds of thousands of hits on reviews over a year or two. He, and this forum, got through the Sondors upheavals pretty well. His real interviews, like with Justin, are probably his legacy, but they are hard for people to watch with no background. @Ravi Kempaiah had a great interview with Paul. I'd like to see an interview with Eric and Luna. Eric has gotten a lot of free exposure on this forum, people have been very supportive. Eric's performance vision for ebikes is not the only one.

(Image file belongs to Radpower and I heavily cropped it. )

 

[Jack Tyler]

@George S. can you offer a link to @Ravi Kempaiah's interview with Paul. I did see a short one that Court did at Interbike, as I recall, but not Ravi's. Yes, that soup to nuts, fascinating, geek-speak to fun-loving interview with Justin was remarkable. And since I'll probably never have a chance to attend an Interbike event, another favorite of mine was Court's Interbike outdoor 'tour' of exhibitors coupled with his convention hall interviews.

 

[George S.]

http://electricbikereview.com/commu...terview-with-paul-from-em3ev.3622/#post-42433

 

[Jack Tyler]

Thanks, George. Turns out that was the interview I remember viewing. Very clever guy.

 

[George S.]

The thing with Paul is that he does things right. I’ve bought a Mac geared hub from him, and it’s kind of ‘his’ brand. I’ve bought Golden Motors from two sources. Paul lays it all out on the Macs. You can configure the obvious stuff, front/rear, rim size, disk or rim brake. You can configure the windings of the motor, sort of a climb versus speed thing. You can buy a controller that will handle the loads you will put on the motor. If you take all this it reaches a level of precision that no one in the ebike world can match. It’s the ‘deep bench’ of DIY.

I’ll have to do a comparison on the Golden and Mac motors, at some point. The Golden is a great motor, smooth and quiet, but the guys selling them can’t get on the same page as the factory in China. Go through the stuff on their help forums and it’s a tangled mess of little problems. They should rename it the “Itsagreatmotorbut”.

Paul is good with the details.

 

[MLB]

A real car replacement would be more of a challenge. Lots of things to consider like weight, bulk, seasonal issues. Not sure I could ride in the cold and snow.

I bought the bike I converted at the local bike shop. I've soured on Bikes Direct. Getting to know the owner means I can take a motor in, discuss some things he might do for me. The young assistant in his shop was aghast at all of it. I will get the usual free tune-ups. I just don't see the tension between LBS and Ebikes. The biggest bike shop in St. George sells Townie and Specialized ebikes, beside the non-powered version.

I thought the $2500 Haibike was real progress but they seemed to completely muck it up. Very few around and the closest dealer dropped the brand. The battery issues might keep me from ever buying a premium factory brand. All the ebikes are outstripping the standard battery sizes. DIY allows you to move with the tech. Batteries matter.

Why do batteries matter George?
I see endless discussion about battery size and much envious curiosity about newer and bigger.
If I didn't know better I'd think it was a metaphor for something else to do with size......
What I DON"T see is discussions about running out of juice and having to walk home.
I've had 4 E bikes, 2 now. The LEAST mileage was about 30-35 with the Stromer. The Haibike often shows that I'd get 50-60.

I've never ridden more than 25 on any of them for any 1 ride.
have you???
Most here's BUTT will give out long before their batteries do.
Not saying it's irrelevant, for some it is a factor. A few. A very few.

 

[opimax]

I avg 60-80 a ride, use 2 batteries on a ST2, pita carrying a 2nd battery. Plus expecting them to work every time and last for years, batteries matter

 

[George S.]

Why do batteries matter George?
I see endless discussion about battery size and much envious curiosity about newer and bigger.
If I didn't know better I'd think it was a metaphor for something else to do with size......
What I DON"T see is discussions about running out of juice and having to walk home.
I've had 4 E bikes, 2 now. The LEAST mileage was about 30-35 with the Stromer. The Haibike often shows that I'd get 50-60.

I've never ridden more than 25 on any of them for any 1 ride.
have you???
Most here's BUTT will give out long before their batteries do.
Not saying it's irrelevant, for some it is a factor. A few. A very few.

The battery is why I can't buy a Haibike, even from a deep discount shop. The Xduro that Court reviewed recently has a 400 wh battery. It's a bad idea to charge to 100%, or go below maybe 15%, so it's a 300 watt hour battery, if you want to avoid buying another battery. I'm not in very good shape. I average under 15 mph, overall, most trips. But if there is a wind I use 400 watt hours on a typical 25 mile trip. And yikes, the replacement for those Bosch batteries is more than the cost of one of my bikes. That bike has a $260 battery with 40% more capacity than your Haibike.

 

[Donny]

The battery is why I can't buy a Haibike, even from a deep discount shop. The Xduro that Court reviewed recently has a 400 wh battery. It's a bad idea to charge to 100%, or go below maybe 15%, so it's a 300 watt hour battery, if you want to avoid buying another battery. I'm not in very good shape. I average under 15 mph, overall, most trips. But if there is a wind I use 400 watt hours on a typical 25 mile trip. And yikes, the replacement for those Bosch batteries is more than the cost of one of my bikes. That bike has a $260 battery with 40% more capacity than your Haibike.

I've sort of wondered the same thing since I would assume that people are still peddling their bikes. If the battery dies, you can still peddle your bike home without relying on the battery. The idea behind these bikes is to give you some assistance when you need it, not to act as a replacement for physical effort. If that's what people want, there are other options out there available (many much cheaper than an ebike). I think we end up sinking into the "bigger is better" frame of mind when we start talking about this stuff.

 

[George S.]

The idea behind these bikes is to give you some assistance when you need it, not to act as a replacement for physical effort.

When I bought my first ebike, all it had was a throttle. On the test ride I wanted to know if I could make an effort, ride it like a bike, and then figure out what the motor would do. I was really impressed, because the riding was fun, but it was still riding a bike. But as a little scooter, it was pretty pathetic.

 

[Donny]

When I bought my first ebike, all it had was a throttle. On the test ride I wanted to know if I could make an effort, ride it like a bike, and then figure out what the motor would do. I was really impressed, because the riding was fun, but it was still riding a bike. But as a little scooter, it was pretty pathetic.

And that's sort of my point - if people are looking for something like that, they are better off looking elsewhere for a better (and probably cheaper) product.

 

[MLB]

I avg 60-80 a ride, use 2 batteries on a ST2, pita carrying a 2nd battery. Plus expecting them to work every time and last for years, batteries matter

You are 1% of riders at most. For most of us a ride is 5-20 miles and battery life NEVER comes into play. I've had E bikes for 4 seasons and I've NEVER run out of juice. Not even close....................
As with E cars, ANXIETY about battery life is about 10x worse than the actual battery life.
THAT is what I'm talking about. And as I said, batteries don't really matter for most of us.

 

[MLB]

The battery is why I can't buy a Haibike, even from a deep discount shop. The Xduro that Court reviewed recently has a 400 wh battery. It's a bad idea to charge to 100%, or go below maybe 15%, so it's a 300 watt hour battery, if you want to avoid buying another battery. I'm not in very good shape. I average under 15 mph, overall, most trips. But if there is a wind I use 400 watt hours on a typical 25 mile trip. And yikes, the replacement for those Bosch batteries is more than the cost of one of my bikes. That bike has a $260 battery with 40% more capacity than your Haibike.

George, a 25 mile ride is LESS THAN 1/2 the battery range of a Haibile. Even with that puny little 300watt hr battery! RELAX!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quit worrying so much and go have fun!

 

[George S.]

I keep records of my amp hours or watt hours used and just use it to label the GPS track of the ride. If I go 25 miles, it is 400 watt hours. So basically, Sport, I'm an old guy with some physical limits and I use the motor more than you do. Haibike isn't selling to me, and I build anyway. I know my numbers. They aren't part of a marketing campaign.

I don't worry about this stuff, but I do care about the science and I like to know precisely what different motors, batteries, etc, can do. I have instruments that allow me to do this, basic equipment that Haibike will never include on their bikes. I think exploring the science and technology of ebikes is 'fun'. The ebike industry hates precision, hates hard numbers. Golly, if Mr. Haibike says I can go 50 miles on a 400 wh battery, must be true.

I joked, last week, that if anyone in the ebike industry puts a watt hour meter on their displays, they get taken for a helicopter ride and dumped in the Bay of Fundy. I love a guy like you who prides himself on being ill-informed. You are like Adonis on a Haibike?

 

[opimax]

i am not sure I agree w/you 100% about being extreme rider but many are not going past their battery range. If you bike has more range would you use it?

 

[George S.]

Well, the people building bikes, motors like the BBSHD, are driving the big batteries. You have the super-fit guys who can ride speed peds by working hard, and people who want some speed but use the battery to get there. If it were legal I would build an EEB with a 1500 watt rear hub, and go around 30 mph. So it's not an easy question. But I would want a real frame to go that fast. And you still want to be riding it like a bike, which might be hard to do. You just can't say everyone can pedal hard and get 50 miles on a battery. That is rubbish. I can tell you precisely how far any rider will get if you tell me how many watts they can produce with the pedals, and what speed they are going, wind, etc. It might be 50 miles, but it might be 15.

There seem to be three groups. The old or unfit folks who want a real helping hand. The young and fit who want a multiplier type sensation, and the performance guys who are just exploring the limits of power, and may not be making bikes at some point. If the people who have plenty of battery at the end of a long ride are that fit, why are they using a motor. At least I need the frickin' motor.

 

[Cameron Newland]

Just some anecdotal evidence here, but I've ran out of battery a handful of times, and it was a real let-down. Luckily, it was usually when I was near home. I have a 417Wh battery on a 500W (nominal) ebike. I'd strongly prefer an ebike with a 700-1000Wh battery. I'm currently building one with ~700Wh and it should be ready to go in a month.

My bike's range is listed as being 25-35 miles, but really, it's more like 13-25 miles. I can take a 5 mile trip across San Francisco, and after the 5 miles home (and up a medium-grade hill), my battery is almost empty. Getting barely more than 10 miles on a charge is ridiculous.

If I rode a Haibike, there's no way I'd get anywhere near 50 miles of range on a charge, as I like to sit in higher pedal-assist modes and regularly ride above 20MPH.