What's an "SUV" ebike?

[Watana Bob]

I concur with what Blackhand says, I dont have his milage but I have run Johnny Watts for 2000 miles and after changing from Super Moto's after scaring myself in fall conditions with wet pavement and leaves. I find the JW's much better suited for those conditions. Bonus, no fllats so far in those 2000 miles.

 

[Aushiker]

My Canyon was labeled as Canyon Pathlite 5 ON SUV.
Ive got it strictly set up an an off-road, bikepacking rig. That’s all I use this bike for, 90% of the time.

Nice looking bike. Unfortunately when I was looking earlier in the year, Canyon was not selling much in the way of eBikes here so had to consider other options.

 

[Aushiker]

No need for a chat as I've owned 3 R&Ms which I've taken across the US 2x + one 1400 mile trip for major trips and umpteen shorter trips with a good deal of involuntary off-road. Some examples of involuntary: Montana - a choice between I-90 or abandoned railroad tracks with a mix of parallel gravel or ATV (deeply pitted) track. Or, no paved in UT leaving me with a trek across the West UT desert. The route originally planned was made unfeasible by the only source of food/electric etc for miles closing without warning ...

As an early adopter of E14, I found it too low to the ground, and the shifter unit collided with brush/small logs, rendering it inoperable. It's now positioned much higher on the SC (at 3 o'clock vs 6 o'clock on mine). You haven't lived until you've pushed an R&M for miles in the middle of nowhere. Speaking of which, had to do it again in the desert when the bike could not manage sandy terrain. It was sooo hot, and I was running out of water. Luckily an astronomer in a truck camping nearby gave me a gallon from his supply.

Another time the motor locked up, and I pushed for 6 miles to a Trek dealer in Georgetown, DC. The fastest route from the canal towpath I was on to the shop is ... up steps. The bike had about 10k miles on it, which brings me to my next point: Everything is fun and fine to about the 3k-4k mark. Then your costs start adding up fast if you're using your bike in rougher terrain. Also, warranty service gets more difficult when you actually use the R&M with gusto. It's like the fitness gym model: an impulse buy with a subsequent "low miles" sale means full margins for the dealer. A core power user means the equipment gets used, bah!

I don't regret the trips and wish you a great time on your trip. However, I do not consider the R&Ms suitable for off-road. 1. Too damn heavy 2. insufficient support outside of metro areas 3. technology that can leave the bike inoperable at the most inconvenient locations 4. A real jump in expense (unless you buy a newer model, but same difference). 5. Not nimble; lack of mobility in constrained areas.

Have to add a somewhat recent experience. The towpath I mentioned above is local to me. I also grew up in a neighborhood right on the towpath. I've taken it from DC to Pittsburgh and back probably 15x at this point, both non-e and electric bikes. The route is relatively flat and as comfortable as comfortable can be. On occasion, the NPS (park service) will detour you. I was on my way to PA to visit with friends when I hit a detour up a hill covered with something like wet mulch. No way of pushing that heavy R&M up -- insufficient traction.

So you have owned three Riese and Muller bikes. I have to ask myself why, given your apparent angst about them.

As to weight, well, my touring/bikepacking tends to be more remote, such that I have carried 35 litres of water/20 days of food on/behind my Surly Long Haul Trucker on one section and on my Surly Mutluk riding sandy 4WD track, beaches and pushing the bike up banks off beaches (one memorable occasion was up a flowing creek) with ~ 10 litres of water on board. I also had to push that bike up down steps on a walking path to access the next beach (not fun).

So, my point is it is just what it is for me.

So far, I have not found the Supercharger 'heavy', and whilst it means a change in my touring style, in a week or so, I will be riding ~150 km of which ~80% will be off bitumen between wall plugs (two days) and carrying six+ litres of water.

This was, IIRC, day three, where I was loaded up with all that water and food.

Ten litres of water on the bike (yes badly secured. I changed bladder style after this trip) with the start of the steps in the background.


Welcome to the Hakea Trail - {Day 06-07} by Andrew Priest, on Flickr

 

[LeeG]

All I know is that many of the gravel roads I ride on have Very Loose gravel and I don't think that knobby tires would make very much difference, especially just after the road has had maintenance done.

View attachment 177861


I've been passed by cars that fishtailed left to right three times as they got back into their lane in front of me.

View attachment 177862

It's as slippery as snow covered/icy roads.
I've had cross winds that almost pushed me off the road because I couldn't steer back to the center of the road without my tires sliding.
That's when I slow Way down.

That’s where a big tire matters more than tread. I have rutted skid trails where I’m traversing gullies and fall lines on step descents and ascents. More slow than fast with frequent braking. Efficiency matters less to me than grip with a BBSHD motor. I do more of that than pavement.

 

[LeeG]

The funny thing is I have only come off on bitumen on my roadie, going into a roundabout hot on a wet day with IIRC Continental GP400s (or similar) fitted. It was several years ago, so I cannot recall the specific tyres.

If I applied the logic suggested here in some posts, I would be coming off my SuperCharger every time I ride as I have a sharp, bottom-of-a-decline 90-degree turn into my street. I do not slow down that much, but I do (irrespective of the bike or tyres) avoid the steel drainage grate in the road, as that can be deadly, even with just a bit of morning dew.

As to the Johhny Watts, they have proven fine so far in both bitumen and the bit of dirt I have played on. I will stick with them for now unless I plan to do more bitumen > gravel/single track riding, in which I will swap them out for faster rolling tyres such as Continental Race King ProTections. Hopefully, the bike will remain an SUV if I do that

I tried some nice light gravel tires emphasizing speed and grip on various terrain but they weren’t big enough and some weren’t tough enough for 75’ of sharp rocks so I tried the 2.35” JW and have been pleased. Recently put on a cheap front wheel with a 2.6” JW and having a good time.

 

[DaveMatthews]

So you have owned three Riese and Muller bikes. I have to ask myself why, given your apparent angst about them.

As to weight, well, my touring/bikepacking tends to be more remote, such that I have carried 35 litres of water/20 days of food on/behind my Surly Long Haul Trucker on one section and on my Surly Mutluk riding sandy 4WD track, beaches and pushing the bike up banks off beaches (one memorable occasion was up a flowing creek) with ~ 10 litres of water on board. I also had to push that bike up down steps on a walking path to access the next beach (not fun).

So, my point is it is just what it is for me.

So far, I have not found the Supercharger 'heavy', and whilst it means a change in my touring style, in a week or so, I will be riding ~150 km of which ~80% will be off bitumen between wall plugs (two days) and carrying six+ litres of water.

This was, IIRC, day three, where I was loaded up with all that water and food.

View attachment 177879

Ten litres of water on the bike (yes badly secured. I changed bladder style after this trip) with the start of the steps in the background.


Welcome to the Hakea Trail - {Day 06-07} by Andrew Priest, on Flickr

Gotta hand it to ya for trekkin' like that mate!

 

[dblhelix]

So you have owned three Riese and Muller bikes. I have to ask myself why, given your apparent angst about them.

As to weight, well, my touring/bikepacking tends to be more remote, such that I have carried 35 litres of water/20 days of food on/behind my Surly Long Haul Trucker on one section and on my Surly Mutluk riding sandy 4WD track, beaches and pushing the bike up banks off beaches (one memorable occasion was up a flowing creek) with ~ 10 litres of water on board. I also had to push that bike up down steps on a walking path to access the next beach (not fun).

So, my point is it is just what it is for me.

So far, I have not found the Supercharger 'heavy', and whilst it means a change in my touring style, in a week or so, I will be riding ~150 km of which ~80% will be off bitumen between wall plugs (two days) and carrying six+ litres of water.

This was, IIRC, day three, where I was loaded up with all that water and food.

View attachment 177879

Ten litres of water on the bike (yes badly secured. I changed bladder style after this trip) with the start of the steps in the background.


Welcome to the Hakea Trail - {Day 06-07} by Andrew Priest, on Flickr

No angst. Use current model as commuter only.

 

[il Munduato]

Thank you for posting your actual experience with them, instead of just calling them sketchy.

I have over 7000 miles on a set of JWs and find their handling very predictable and consistent across a range of surfaces and conditions. Yeah, I don't corner as tightly at speed as I used to on my Super MotoX tires. Then again, those tires let out on me multiple times in both wet and cold conditions on corners I take often.

I might try the Al Grounder next, but I prefer a folding tire like the JWs because they are so much easier to get on the rim after patching a tube in the field.

The JW definitely have their niche but I find them more bias towards trail. My break is probably 70/30 /paved/trail so I was hoping for a little better. Now I just drop a few mph and go in a little more cautious and it hasn't been a problem. I do appreciate their trail performance especially as I often go from road to off road repeatedly on the same ride.
So as before, everything is a compromise.

"spirited ride" = riding after drinking spirits (ethanol). Not recommended. Don't drink and ride!

View attachment 177870

I couldn't agree more.
Intervals on a packmule certainly involves alcohol

 

[mschwett]

Here's a list of 70 Bosch-equipped "SUV" ebikes compiled by Bosch.

eBikes with Bosch system

www.bosch-ebike.com

Some are outright full-suspension eMTBs. Some look a lot like commuters to me. But if I delved into their specs, these might well turn out to have some off-roady features not evident in the thumbnails.

Beginning to think that "SUV" doesn't mean much beyond "not a road bike, cruiser, or pavement-only commuter".

i'm not sure what the origin of the term is, obviously a few forumers like to use it.

but i'd say it's very similar to the nature of an SUV in the automotive world. relatively large, heavy, capable of carrying people and cargo comfortably, moderately powerful but not built for absolute speed, and able to handle somewhat varied terrain comfortably. to me in an eBike this means tires that work acceptably on pavement or dirt of at least 42mm, a suspension fork and optionally rear suspension, an aluminum or steel frame with fenders and attachment points for racks and lights, at least 500w peak power, a battery at least 500wh, an upright riding position, and a drivetrain with a very roughly 30-120 gear inch range. the result will be in the 45-75lb weight range.

such a bike can get the groceries, commute, ride on a rail trail, or a moderately long road ride capably, as long as one is not concerned with the absolute peak efficiency for each of those tasks.

 

[PDoz]

i'm not sure what the origin of the term is, obviously a few forumers like to use it.

but i'd say it's very similar to the nature of an SUV in the automotive world. relatively large, heavy, capable of carrying people and cargo comfortably, moderately powerful but not built for absolute speed, and able to handle somewhat varied terrain comfortably. to me in an eBike this means tires that work acceptably on pavement or dirt of at least 42mm, a suspension fork and optionally rear suspension, an aluminum or steel frame with fenders and attachment points for racks and lights, at least 500w peak power, a battery at least 500wh, an upright riding position, and a drivetrain with a very roughly 30-120 gear inch range. the result will be in the 45-75lb weight range.

such a bike can get the groceries, commute, ride on a rail trail, or a moderately long road ride capably, as long as one is not concerned with the absolute peak efficiency for each of those tasks.

Reading some of these responses, I wonder if the US has a different understanding to the rest of the world re the automotive suv ?

We refer to them as soft roaders, as opposed to off roaders. Pretty much anything from subaru would be an example. Most have insufficient ground clearance or traction aids to function well in the dirt ( aka they struggle to get up my driveway) , they have limited load carrying ability and certainly struggle to tow anything of decent size ( my boat, or horse float) . They are built light, so rattle to death when faced with outback travel over corrugations of any significance. The stock tyres shred at the first sharp rock, or spin when faced with mud.

Not the sort of vehicle Aushiker would own, and even I question their viability as the town car.

I'm wondering if a US SUV is what we call a ute ? Eg ford ranger ? The dual cab , chassis mounted light 4x4 semi commercial confused vehicle that is never sure if it's going to the shopping mall or the beach?

 

[il Munduato]

Reading some of these responses, I wonder if the US has a different understanding to the rest of the world re the automotive suv ?

We refer to them as soft roaders, as opposed to off roaders. Pretty much anything from subaru would be an example. Most have insufficient ground clearance or traction aids to function well in the dirt ( aka they struggle to get up my driveway) , they have limited load carrying ability and certainly struggle to tow anything of decent size ( my boat, or horse float) . They are built light, so rattle to death when faced with outback travel over corrugations of any significance. The stock tyres shred at the first sharp rock, or spin when faced with mud.

Not the sort of vehicle Aushiker would own, and even I question their viability as the town car.

I'm wondering if a US SUV is what we call a ute ? Eg ford ranger ? The dual cab , chassis mounted light 4x4 semi commercial confused vehicle that is never sure if it's going to the shopping mall or the beach?

Actually you can buy a wide range from the off-road equipped to the economical to luxury....but all carry the SUV nomenclature. Sport Utility defined by aiding in outdoor activities.
Most in the US opt for the luxury so not really ready for off-road.
A truly hard core off road vehicle needs to be finished off by a customizing shop and can be tailored to what ever you're willing to spend.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Reading some of these responses, I wonder if the US has a different understanding to the rest of the world re the automotive suv ?

We refer to them as soft roaders, as opposed to off roaders. Pretty much anything from subaru would be an example. Most have insufficient ground clearance or traction aids to function well in the dirt ( aka they struggle to get up my driveway) , they have limited load carrying ability and certainly struggle to tow anything of decent size ( my boat, or horse float) . They are built light, so rattle to death when faced with outback travel over corrugations of any significance. The stock tyres shred at the first sharp rock, or spin when faced with mud.

Four personal data points on SUVs in the US: 1989 and 2019 Jeep Grand Cherokees, and 1998 and 2005 Dodge Durangos. All had true 4WD. The 1989 had the legendary Jeep 4.0L I-6; the rest, the Chrysler 5.7L Hemi V-8.

All 4 have been much better built and far more capable than you've described. The first 3 served us well for 7+ years each. The 2019 is still going strong.

We buy these SUVs for their cargo capacity, versatility, power, and comfort — especially on long road trips with the dog ± bikes. We drive our more fuel-efficient cars whenever possible, but when we need an SUV like this, we need it bad. This comes up too often for rentals to make sense.

An SUV ebike would do well to be this versatile.

 

[Nvreloader]

I keep seeing references to "SUV" ebikes but still unclear as to what kind of ebike that really is. So...

Q: What's an "SUV" ebike?

View attachment 177814
For example, I put 2.3" hybrid tires with side lugs on my 500W, 65 Nm torque-sensing hub-drive. With lowered 10-speed gearing and my help at the MTB pedals, it does a decent job on the pavement and light to moderate trails in my sandy, hilly area. Low-tide beaches, too. Certainly versatile enough for my purposes, but I have no Tour de France or technical MTB aspirations.

Compared to the road bikes and true MTBs of my earlier years, I think of this bike in its current state as a "hybrid". Question is, could it also be called an "SUV"?

Answer:
A SUV is a versatile electric bike with unique features that's inspired by sport utility vehicles. SUV e-bikes are designed to be multifunctional all-rounders that can be practical, sporty, fun, and adventurous. ymmv

 

[DaveMatthews]

Seriously
Underrated
Velo

 

[BlackHand]

Actually you can buy a wide range from the off-road equipped to the economical to luxury....but all carry the SUV nomenclature. Sport Utility defined by aiding in outdoor activities.
Most in the US opt for the luxury so not really ready for off-road.
A truly hard core off road vehicle needs to be finished off by a customizing shop and can be tailored to what ever you're willing to spend.

As far as cars, I believe originally SUV referred to body on frame construction, like pickups and light commercial vehicles, combined with a 'station wagon' body type. Typically 4wd, but could be rwd just like pickups. It combined the ability of a truck( towing, off road) with the comforts of a car and a passenger cabin. Think old school 4Runner.

CUV's, or crossovers, are built with unibody construction like passenger vehicles. Same body styling as SUV's, though some would more properly be a hatchback rather than station wagon body style. Lower clearance and towing capacity than true SUVs, but typically better gas mileage and more comfortable. Most of what the public buys and calls SUVs in the US are really crossovers now. Rav4 is probably the first modern CUV if you ignore older outliers like the AMC Eagle.

 

[LeeG]

Reading some of these responses, I wonder if the US has a different understanding to the rest of the world re the automotive suv ?


I'm wondering if a US SUV is what we call a ute ? Eg ford ranger ? The dual cab , chassis mounted light 4x4 semi commercial confused vehicle that is never sure if it's going to the shopping mall or the beach?

I think the first few generations of truck based passenger vehicles were like that but now with the fancier unibody big tired AWD luxury suvs the category got widened. I don’t know the ebike market but the term suv ebike seems to say “you can wear dress clothes through anything”

 

[il Munduato]

As far as cars, I believe originally SUV referred to body on frame construction, like pickups and light commercial vehicles, combined with a 'station wagon' body type. Typically 4wd, but could be rwd just like pickups. It combined the ability of a truck( towing, off road) with the comforts of a car and a passenger cabin. Think old school 4Runner.

CUV's, or crossovers, are built with unibody construction like passenger vehicles. Same body styling as SUV's, though some would more properly be a hatchback rather than station wagon body style. Lower clearance and towing capacity than true SUVs, but typically better gas mileage and more comfortable. Most of what the public buys and calls SUVs in the US are really crossovers now. Rav4 is probably the first modern CUV if you ignore older outliers like the AMC Eagle.

Definitely... Since becoming a huge part of market share every vehicle even remotely associated wants to be known as an SUV.
There really is no definitive definition.

 

[PDoz]

Four personal data points on SUVs in the US: 1989 and 2019 Jeep Grand Cherokees, and 1998 and 2005 Dodge Durangos. All had true 4WD. The 1989 had the legendary Jeep 4.0L I-6; the rest, the Chrysler 5.7L Hemi V-8.

All 4 have been much better built and far more capable than you've described. The first 3 served us well for 7+ years each. The 2019 is still going strong.

We buy these SUVs for their cargo capacity, versatility, power, and comfort — especially on long road trips with the dog ± bikes. We drive our more fuel-efficient cars whenever possible, but when we need an SUV like this, we need it bad. This comes up too often for rentals to make sense.

An SUV ebike would do well to be this versatile.

So there is definitely a difference between US SUV and the rest of the world!

As an example, a jeep compass would just scrape in as a softroader / suv but the cherokee is considered a luxury 4x4 ( admittedly they all get serious $ thrown at them before getting dirty)

I understand the benefits of medium capability 4x4's - having covered several hundred thousand km in various mitsubishis (98 triton , 2006 pajero, and more recently a ford ranger. ( crappiest car ever)

We tend to have an urban car for lighter work - eg subaru forrester / mitsubishi challenger - soft roaders that stay parked if we get decent rain making our driveway challenging. These vehicles get moved on around the 200,000 km mark because they aren't built to last.


So back on topic - it sounds like an esuv is a dirt capable rugged tourer ? No wonder it's been hard to clarify!

 

[il Munduato]

So there is definitely a difference between US SUV and the rest of the world!

As an example, a jeep compass would just scrape in as a softroader / suv but the cherokee is considered a luxury 4x4 ( admittedly they all get serious $ thrown at them before getting dirty)

I understand the benefits of medium capability 4x4's - having covered several hundred thousand km in various mitsubishis (98 triton , 2006 pajero, and more recently a ford ranger. ( crappiest car ever)

We tend to have an urban car for lighter work - eg subaru forrester / mitsubishi challenger - soft roaders that stay parked if we get decent rain making our driveway challenging. These vehicles get moved on around the 200,000 km mark because they aren't built to last.


So back on topic - it sounds like an esuv is a dirt capable rugged tourer ? No wonder it's been hard to clarify!

Honestly.. I don't think anyone in the US is losing sleep over the question. It's considered a very broad term like the word truck. Like I said before it can be family oriented light duty.. to luxury.. to hard-core off road.
This is the first I'm ever hearing any discussion over it and that's only because it's now being applied to ebikes.
Since "SUV" is a US term in origin... I'd say that the rest of the word is giving it more weight than it deserves

 

[LeeG]

So there is definitely a difference between US SUV and the rest of the world!

As an example, a jeep compass would just scrape in as a softroader / suv but the cherokee is considered a luxury 4x4 ( admittedly they all get serious $ thrown at them before getting dirty)

I understand the benefits of medium capability 4x4's - having covered several hundred thousand km in various mitsubishis (98 triton , 2006 pajero, and more recently a ford ranger. ( crappiest car ever)

We tend to have an urban car for lighter work - eg subaru forrester / mitsubishi challenger - soft roaders that stay parked if we get decent rain making our driveway challenging. These vehicles get moved on around the 200,000 km mark because they aren't built to last.


So back on topic - it sounds like an esuv is a dirt capable rugged tourer ? No wonder it's been hard to clarify!

Methinks the peculiarities of US gov’t policy favoring domestic truck manufacturers, low cost fuel, business tax credits for light trucks/suvs, CAFE standards and 30 yrs of stagnant Fed Fuel tax created a niche favoring inefficient large vehicles as daily drivers so much that the basic light truck exceeded sedan sales 20 yrs ago. The rest of the passenger car market had to raise its seating position to compete creating big wheeled small stationwagons cuvs. We’ll have a lot of used pickup to pass on to the next generation when the next oil crisis hits.