Van Moof announces a 31 mph awd 'hyperbike'

[m@Robertson]

Interesting. I am a big advocate of awd/2wd ebikes for their increased traction and their general 'just works better' nature. Also they are well suited to a utility bike (not a recreational one) that is supposed to be an auto replacement.

Van Moof is going there, it seems. Bravo.

Looks like they are using an integrated, inverted front fork to overcome the inherent weakness of traditional suspension forks coupled to a motor. I am sure a highly engineered bike like this has some smarts integrated into the controller that commercial 2wd bikes of the present day lack.

VanMoof unveils 31 mph 'hyperbike' electric bicycle with two motors and full suspension

VanMoof has just announced a new high-speed electric bicycle model known as the VanMoof V, which will reach speeds of...

electrek.co

 

[rich c]

Not sure how that spring parallel to the seat stay will work. With the pivot all the way down on the bottom bracket, that's a huge arc to work with the shock mount. That bottom bracket pivot must be huge to keep the entire back end under control during side loading. In my 5 years of eBike riding, I've never had an issue with traction of a 1wd. Not even on a single track.

 

[jabberwocky]

Not sure how that spring parallel to the seat stay will work. With the pivot all the way down on the bottom bracket, that's a huge arc to work with the shock mount. That bottom bracket pivot must be huge to keep the entire back end under control during side loading. In my 5 years of eBike riding, I've never had an issue with traction of a 1wd. Not even on a single track.

It looks like a design exercise whose goal is "grab headlines and look cool" with not much thought given to making a functional bike. And yeah, 2wd is a solution in search of a problem on a bike.

 

[m@Robertson]

Not sure how that spring parallel to the seat stay will work. With the pivot all the way down on the bottom bracket, that's a huge arc to work with the shock mount. That bottom bracket pivot must be huge to keep the entire back end under control during side loading. In my 5 years of eBike riding, I've never had an issue with traction of a 1wd. Not even on a single track.

2wd just plain works better. Its one of those things that hits you between the eyes after the first 100 feet or so. But before that ride you could spend 10,000 words trying to convince someone and still fail. On the bike, you end up going thru impossible terrain and then, once thru, realizing what you just did and wondering how in the hell that happened. Especially without you noticing.

Think of it like a 4wd vehicle vs. a 2wd. You see a lot of ebike riders say they don't need front wheel power and instead just load bigger power onto the back. But nobody makes that argument for awd sports cars, or 4wd off roaders. 4-wheel power is much better understood because the awd/4wd platform is in such wide use, the benefits are beyond question. For 2wd/awd bikes, they're still largely a rarity and people lack the experience to know and often understand the difference. But ride one and boom instant realization. With that said I think all of the commercial 2wd bikes are at v1.0 levels of understanding on how to do it right. What eCells does is, for example, appalling on many fronts.

Dual Motor AWD Electric Bikes (the good and bad)

I like to build top-quality-component ebikes from the frame up. Quite a few of them are dual motor or AWD or 2WD or whatever you want to call them. Why would you build an AWD ebike?

talesontwowheels.com

 

[m@Robertson]

It looks like a design exercise whose goal is "grab headlines and look cool" with not much thought given to making a functional bike.

Van Moof has a long-established track record for delivering on promises. This bike is supposed to be on shelves, so to speak, in about a year. I'm sure some of it will change. But they're dead serious about building it and they have the engineering know-how to put out whats on the page. We'll see what happens. I put myself on the waiting list. One thing that impressed me is they have the urban commuting needs and use-case exactly right. Its right along the lines of what I've been doing myself for years.

Don't forget this bike is designed for streets. FS bikes tend to be centered around trails. Different use case and different needs. The rear triangle, for instance... with that design you could do a rack easily, and thats a core need for an urban bike. Going inverted on the fork in front addresses some issues with strength when you put a motor on the front - which is a dealbreaker (safety) for a front-motor bike ordinarily. They will have to do a lot more than just that to make a front suspension fork safe with a front motor but this is a company that thinks things thru so I have a lot more confidence in them figuring it out than I do the commercial 2wd sellers on the market right now.

 

[jabberwocky]

I've been a mountainbiker for decades, and commuted year round for years (including in ice and snow, on nokian studded tires). I just don't see what 2wd gets me. Traction on a bike is 99.99% tire and technique. I ride up stuff on my EMTB that no street bike could handle, and I've never once wished the front wheel was powered (generally, if I'm at the limit on a climb, I'm working like hell to keep the front wheel on the ground, so theres zero help that a whole motor system up there could give).

Think of it like a 4wd vehicle vs. a 2wd. You see a lot of ebike riders say they don't need front wheel power and instead just load bigger power onto the back. But nobody makes that argument for awd sports cars, or 4wd off roaders. 4-wheel power is much better understood because the awd/4wd platform is in such wide use, the benefits are beyond question. [/URL]

The motion dynamics of a car are very different than a bike. For one thing, cars drive systems and power delivery can be designed around tires losing and regaining traction. That doesn't work on bikes. A rear tire losing traction is (probably) recoverable on a bike with a skilled rider, but a front tire spinning and losing traction in any sort of corner will almost certainly result in a crash.

Don't forget this bike is designed for streets. FS bikes tend to be centered around trails. Different use case and different needs. The rear triangle, for instance... with that design you could do a rack easily, and thats a core need for an urban bike. Going inverted on the fork in front addresses some issues with strength when you put a motor on the front - which is a dealbreaker (safety) for a front-motor bike ordinarily. They will have to do a lot more than just that to make a front suspension fork safe with a front motor but this is a company that thinks things thru so I have a lot more confidence in them figuring it out than I do the commercial 2wd sellers on the market right now.

Overall suspension design doesn't really change when you go from trail to street. It functions the same. Trail bikes just tend to have more of it, and its tuned for more sensitivity initially and a ramp up at the end to handle larger hits/drops/whatever. The suspension design on that is dumb. Its a single pivot right above the BB (not unusual) but the rear triangle is rigid without an additional pivot and the shock isn't oriented in plane with the only pivot point. Which is why I said its a rendering of something to look cool more than a functional bike.

 

[mschwett]

Van Moof has a long-established track record for delivering on promises.

i think this is an interesting move by vanmoof and i generally applaud it even though it's absolutely not a bike for me, even though i have a vanmoof S3.

i think they're smart in thinking that the future for bikes in the western world is not to make them more like bikes, but to make them more like mopeds/scooters. people want fast, flexible, comfortable, secure, etc. personally, i want light, nimble, fast, fun... but that's not what most people want. they're also smart in just biting the bullet and making it a moped or some sort, with lights and whatever else is required for registration and insurance.

i also have a 2wd 1kw scooter, and 2wd is undoubtedly better. it would be even more better if it allowed the use on this "bike" of compact direct drive motors for regenerative electronic braking, which works exceptionally well on my boosted rev. if they're making this thing in the 60+ lb category, with two motors, they should be able to do that. again, not for me, but very interesting for some use cases.

 

[mschwett]

I've been a mountainbiker for decades, and commuted year round for years (including in ice and snow, on nokian studded tires). I just don't see what 2wd gets me. Traction on a bike is 99.99% tire and technique. I ride up stuff on my EMTB that no street bike could handle, and I've never once wished the front wheel was powered (generally, if I'm at the limit on a climb, I'm working like hell to keep the front wheel on the ground, so theres zero help that a whole motor system up there could give).

front hub motors for bikes are just so incredibly simple. vanmoof already use them in huge quantity, understands them very well, and adding a rear hub motor is a way to overcome the traction issues of more power while keeping the motors small and the weight distribution balanced.

the current vanmoof S3 has a 500w front hub motor, and despite all the people who know better saying otherwise, it's no problem whatsoever to ride it up/down/around steep hills (i live in san francisco, lol), even with a toddler seat BEHIND me. if i was interested in a heavier, more powerful version of that bike, adding a rear hub motor with another 1,000w back there plus suspension and so on would be pretty interesting.

 

[m@Robertson]

I've been a mountainbiker for decades, and commuted year round for years (including in ice and snow, on nokian studded tires). I just don't see what 2wd gets me. Traction on a bike is 99.99% tire and technique. I ride up stuff on my EMTB that no street bike could handle, and I've never once wished the front wheel was powered (generally, if I'm at the limit on a climb, I'm working like hell to keep the front wheel on the ground, so theres zero help that a whole motor system up there could give).

Overall suspension design doesn't really change when you go from trail to street. It functions the same. Trail bikes just tend to have more of it, and its tuned for more sensitivity initially and a ramp up at the end to handle larger hits/drops/whatever. The suspension design on that is dumb. Its a single pivot right above the BB (not unusual) but the rear triangle is rigid without an additional pivot and the shock isn't oriented in plane with the only pivot point. Which is why I said its a rendering of something to look cool more than a functional bike.

Like I said. I can talk and talk on this and without riding experience, I am wasting my breath vs. someone who has their heels dug in. I will say this: The subject has morphed from its original "its impossible and will never work" a few years back to "I don't need it." so things are coming slowly around.

On your uphill example, you're half right. The benefit of traction on the front wheel is significantly reduced by having all that weight on the back, but its not zero. For trails - on a 2wd meant for trails - I reduce power to the front wheel significantly, so it never delivers more than about 200-250w. Thats enough to help but not enough to break traction.

But also don't forget we aren't talking about mountain bike riding here. The Van Moof is a city bike. And its use case is as a workhorse on city streets. Thats a different kind of riding entirely.

My mid+hub awd bike is an absolute animal on city streets as that 250w can be increased, and also set to ramp up slowly. First engaging before the mid does to take the shock off the rear drivetrain. BTW there's something not obvious to passersby: A front hub motor almost eliminates all the excess wear on the drivetrain as said drivetrain is never starting the bike from a stop. On flat land I can leave the bike in an 11T cog and start from a stop with it like that. Despite 1750w going to the rear that $7 cog lasts about 1000 miles. You'd get like 100 on a rear-only drivetrain and you sure as hell wouldn't be jumping off the starting line and properly merging with traffic. Think left turn lane and not being the turd enraging all the drivers behind you - and doing it by pedaling not throttling.

On suspension: That Van Moof rear triangle is a single, solid triangle that never changes orientation. I'm sure its not as efficient as many other designs. But it can do one thing that other suspensions can't: Handle a serious rear rack. There are strap-on or seatpost racks that are - to someone who really uses racks - totally half-assed. A proper rack like an Axiom that is rated for a 50 kg load, or an OMM or a Blackburn - is not possible to mount on a FS bike. But its no problem on this design. the closest attempt I have seen at solving this is the Frey CC, which has braze-ons top and bottom on its seatstay. But it requires a custom rack that is still not so strong as it could be.

 

[m@Robertson]

front hub motors for bikes are just so incredibly simple. vanmoof already make them in huge quantity, understands them very well, and adding a rear hub motor is a way to overcome the traction issues of more power while keeping the motors small and the weight distribution balanced.

the current vanmoof S3 has a 500w front hub motor, and despite all the people who know better saying otherwise, it's no problem whatsoever to ride it up/down/around steep hills (i live in san francisco, lol), even with a toddler seat BEHIND me. if i was interested in a heavier, more powerful version of that bike, adding a rear hub motor with another 1,000w back there plus suspension and so on would be pretty interesting.

the biggest concern I have is the fact they are using a hub in the back rather than a mid drive. With that said, my first 2wd bike was a hub/hub, and it worked on flat ground splendidly. Them being a Dutch company, I can see where hill climbing is not quite the priority as their EU customers are all on table-flat land. My branching into mid/hub bikes came about when I moved my bike from Fresno to what I thought would be its eventual home in the Monterey Bay area. Specifically Pacific Grove/Carmel, where everything is on a hill, sometimes a really steep one. the hubs did their job but even being dual 80Nm 35a monsters, I could hear the gears whining and realized they would die young if I subjected them to a hilly life. Solution was putting a mid in the back on a whole new build, and it was like a miracle. I did the same thing with my Bullitt, built a few years later. But its much more work to do a bike like that and, in the end, you have manufactured just one bike going one way or the other.

Van Moof, being a hub bike company, can deploy a dual hub to great effect quickly. With their design chops, I expect they will solve a lot of issues that escape the current commercial players. Just looking at it in its early form its clear they recognize the rack issue and worked around it.

 

[billmeek]

Something the electrek.co article missed:

Quote from the Vanmoof V Reveal event at:

The Vanmoof V will have integrated speed setting to match your country's regulations. However, this bike has the technology and capacity to hit speeds up to 60 KPH or 37 MPH.

 

[mschwett]

it's a pretty slick design. great to see someone pushing the limits of what a "bicycle" can be - and it actually doesn't look all that god-awful heavy like some similar concepts.

 

[Edrummer]

The battery will be just as important as the dual motors. Skimp on the battery specs and this is a bust.

 

[billmeek]

The battery will be just as important as the dual motors. Skimp on the battery specs and this is a bust.

700 Wh battery

 

[Edrummer]

700 Wh battery

Well at 700 watts…..that’s swing and a miss.

 

[billmeek]

Assuming it's 36 volt like the X3/S3 bikes, you can purchase one of the VanMoof Powerbanks ($348) to get over a kilowatt hour (1078 Wh) of power combined.

 

[JRA]

Well at 700 watts…..that’s swing and a miss.

I'd have to agree because terrain and overall weight and wind resistance will eat between 30 and 40 wh/mi at speeds over 30mph.

At this time as alluded to by the video there are not any regulations on the books that support the legality of this bike on the roads much less bike lane/infrastructure.

That said I have believed for a number of years that an acutally ergonomically pedalable MoPed class bike that is comfortable and secure to ride at speed would be a nice way to get around the city or even explore country roads. Along with the BMW i Amby it seems like there is some momentum forming for such a bike and it will be interesting to see what develops. Maybe Bultaco will bring back the Brinco that I feel was the first attempt at this genre.



One last thing is that I am not seeing the possibility of high enough gearing on either the BMW or VanMoof for effective pedaling at over 30mph. It is interesting that VanMoof does mention automatic gearing however as that is a requirement for current MoPed regulations.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

37 mph capability is playing right into big government's hands in forcing licensing and registration for ALL ebikers. I certainly don't want to see these things on my local bike paths and trails.

On another front, the Christini All Wheel Drive ebike is truly the way to go for those who want the ultimate in off-road traction. Smart, well-thought, mechanical interface that joins both wheels together, unlike those Chineseium monstrosities with two hub motors. Link: https://christinibicycles.com/bikes/christini-electric-bikes/awd-fat-e-4-bbhd-mid-drive/

 

[Ebiker01]

BRAVO VANMOOF !! It does not scream : motorcycle and it's a gentle design for bike path sharing aka it won't scare people away or get u stop by the Leo.

But this IS FOR HIGHLY SKILLED RIDERS !! It was mentioned earlier, riding in corners : power on the front wheel takes lots of practice , gentle pedalling and the right power level; mix corners+rain and very few can keep this ebike upright going faster then 8-9mph; tire pressure very imp.

- option to lower and increase the tire pressure automatically , i want on this !!!

- ABS i want on this !!

- crabon frame i want too !!

- great that they can do geo fencing ( areas where legal speed limit is 25mph or whatever the limit is); that will appeal to the legislators

- that pack needs to be at least 815WH in order to nuke all Stromer customers and make them switch

- a 55/10 gearing could be doable for 32-37mph in those rare situations when u need to buy milk for ur family asap

Deposit paid , but i want my wants resolved by late 2022 or whenever is put into production.

 

[m@Robertson]

Agreed with those noting it above. If the battery isn't a big one this is a pointless exercise. Van Moof is as much about clean design as they are anything else and if they sacrifice power on an application that requires lots of it, its a fail.

But this IS FOR HIGHLY SKILLED RIDERS !! It was mentioned earlier, riding in corners : power on the front wheel takes lots of practice , gentle pedalling and the right power level; mix corners+rain and very few can keep this ebike upright going faster then 8-9mph; tire pressure very imp.

I wouldn't say that at all. 2wd is no different than one in terms of rider training. You'll learn the ropes in a day... likely only in a city block, but the I am saying that having bikes with the chief risk designed out of them (front wheel power power rolls on gently via controller settings). If you have experienced this problem, thats a misconfiguration of the system, or one slapped together without thinking of this. From what I have read the new Eunorau 2wd bike has this problem in spades.

Done right a powered front wheel is nothing but an improvement in handling... unless its set up wrong, and the commercial manufacturers seem to all get it wrong (so did I with my early builds). There are circumstances where you can goose the front throttle and faceplant - mostly in off-road situations. Likewise, if you do not set power to roll on gently - and let it turn on like a light switch - all manner of potential disasters are in store for the rider.

I doubt Van Moof will put on a single throttle let alone giving you the kind of granular control dual throttles provide. I also expect they are smart enough to have the front wheel power up gently.

On another front, the Christini All Wheel Drive ebike is truly the way to go for those who want the ultimate in off-road traction. Smart, well-thought, mechanical interface that joins both wheels together, unlike those Chineseium monstrosities with two hub motors. Link: https://christinibicycles.com/bikes/christini-electric-bikes/awd-fat-e-4-bbhd-mid-drive/

These are the same guys who supply 2wd motorcycles to the US military. Its a very mature system, but its designed for off road/overland use. That linkage remains in place and in operation 100% of the time, but does not provide front wheel assist unless the rear wheel is slipping (look into how they did the relative gear ratios of the two wheels). Its meant to do that, and is a great off-road solution, but that is no help in street use where wheel slippage is nonexistent. I personally prefer two independent systems with a shared battery. The performance delivered makes the weight penalty of the added motor and controller worth it, and on rare occasion I've needed the redundancy.

I wouldn't judge dual motor 2wd on the "chinesium monstrosities" (cough *ecells* cough). Those bikes are a cobbled-together mess.
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