Undertaking legal actions against Watt Wagons
- Thread starter onlineaddy
- Start date
tomjasz
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Minnesnowta
I don't bother with reading the guy anymore. Try to find ANY helpful posts from the guy. Most if not all posts are just mean-spirited attacks.
pushkar
Well-Known Member
Hey guys,
I am chiming in because I was directed to by a couple of concerned members. Thank you.
1. We have posted the details of the refund process on the private forum. We have tried to provide transparency along the way as and when we get responses from vendors. We are here because a couple of founders accused us of using "founder money" to fund watt wagons. So here are the choices
Option 1: We offered to replace the orders with bikes we WERE able to make (hydra / UC Pro etc) or take parts that were ordered. Some folks took that route and we are good on that front.
Option 2: We offered to return the inventory and return the money as the funds came in.
-- The reason we went down this route is because a couple of folks privately accused us of using their money to invest in the company. We clearly did not, we purchased inventory. We have since carved out the "founders" and tracking all funds separately.
-- We have returned all the inventory bought from these orders but one vendor in particular has not been responsive since October 2021. We were finally notified of the refund being issued but as of today morning we dont have the check. I will post a confirmation of the email thread on the private forum
So
1. If we wait for the inventory return process to be completed - we are getting threats of legal action for delaying.
2. If we try to pay using WW proceeds, we are getting threats of legal action saying that the money was invested in the company.
If these couple of individuals continue to press us and continue to create legal action (@brashcam already did) - we dont have the funds to fight this. We will have to close down, sell our assets. Please note that in this case : all order refunds will be paid last - so there is no guarantee that any money will be returned. We can sugar coat this but this is the reality.
We are in a no-win situation. We will return the money as the checks come in. We are not trying to be difficult but we are where we are. There is no blood coming from stone.
I am chiming in because I was directed to by a couple of concerned members. Thank you.
1. We have posted the details of the refund process on the private forum. We have tried to provide transparency along the way as and when we get responses from vendors. We are here because a couple of founders accused us of using "founder money" to fund watt wagons. So here are the choices
Option 1: We offered to replace the orders with bikes we WERE able to make (hydra / UC Pro etc) or take parts that were ordered. Some folks took that route and we are good on that front.
Option 2: We offered to return the inventory and return the money as the funds came in.
-- The reason we went down this route is because a couple of folks privately accused us of using their money to invest in the company. We clearly did not, we purchased inventory. We have since carved out the "founders" and tracking all funds separately.
-- We have returned all the inventory bought from these orders but one vendor in particular has not been responsive since October 2021. We were finally notified of the refund being issued but as of today morning we dont have the check. I will post a confirmation of the email thread on the private forum
So
1. If we wait for the inventory return process to be completed - we are getting threats of legal action for delaying.
2. If we try to pay using WW proceeds, we are getting threats of legal action saying that the money was invested in the company.
If these couple of individuals continue to press us and continue to create legal action (@brashcam already did) - we dont have the funds to fight this. We will have to close down, sell our assets. Please note that in this case : all order refunds will be paid last - so there is no guarantee that any money will be returned. We can sugar coat this but this is the reality.
We are in a no-win situation. We will return the money as the checks come in. We are not trying to be difficult but we are where we are. There is no blood coming from stone.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
There is no threat from me. I stated the facts. As you said, "this is the reality".
This is the only threat I see (in your response to potential legal actions against you):
This is the only threat I see (in your response to potential legal actions against you):
@pushkar, I have made no claims regarding what wattwagons has done with money it has taken in from founders orders.
I also haven’t initiated legal action, as you’ve claimed. What I did was send a letter of demand (which I haven’t acted on), and filed a consumer complaint.
I have also been clear that the only way to seemingly get action or consistent communication from you is when somebody plans escalation. Your last forum post before I sent a letter of demand was March 4. You followed up after you received it May 11th.
When you don’t communicate you don’t leave people very many choices. I also don’t think I have been brash (as you spelled my handle ”brashcam”). I’ve been very patient over the last two years.
You also create a false choice between paying your refunds and shutting down. Surely there are other ways you can raise funds.
I also haven’t initiated legal action, as you’ve claimed. What I did was send a letter of demand (which I haven’t acted on), and filed a consumer complaint.
I have also been clear that the only way to seemingly get action or consistent communication from you is when somebody plans escalation. Your last forum post before I sent a letter of demand was March 4. You followed up after you received it May 11th.
When you don’t communicate you don’t leave people very many choices. I also don’t think I have been brash (as you spelled my handle ”brashcam”). I’ve been very patient over the last two years.
You also create a false choice between paying your refunds and shutting down. Surely there are other ways you can raise funds.
Last edited:
Csubi
Active Member
- Region
- Canada
I understand some have issues, and I get that. All this is doing is scaring potential new customers away, which pulls potential funds away from WW and making it harder to pay back what you are owed. Hey, you have legal battle going on, good on you. Proud of you for your stand.
However, there are many others who are very happy with their WW products. There are many more potential people who can be happy in the future.
You are a minority, but as always the minority YELLS the loudest.
The silence of the majority is what allows the minority to exist.
Complete your legal action. I hope you get what you deserve. Just don't drag everything and everyone else down with you. Especially those who have good experiences
*I've said my piece and will not rebuttal or get into an unwinnable argument on the internet. Comment and do as you wish
However, there are many others who are very happy with their WW products. There are many more potential people who can be happy in the future.
You are a minority, but as always the minority YELLS the loudest.
The silence of the majority is what allows the minority to exist.
Complete your legal action. I hope you get what you deserve. Just don't drag everything and everyone else down with you. Especially those who have good experiences
*I've said my piece and will not rebuttal or get into an unwinnable argument on the internet. Comment and do as you wish
Hey, it wasn’t my intent to yell. Pushkar called me out.
That’s not a very nice thing for you to say. All we are trying to do is to get pushkar to communicate and pay his debts. I really don’t want to take him to court or harm his business, but I want to respond publicly when he makes misleading or false public claims about the actions I’ve taken.
That’s not a very nice thing for you to say. All we are trying to do is to get pushkar to communicate and pay his debts. I really don’t want to take him to court or harm his business, but I want to respond publicly when he makes misleading or false public claims about the actions I’ve taken.
Last edited:
pushkar
Well-Known Member
@brashcam we have lost sales explicitly due to you and @onlineaddy constantly posting on the forums. We received a call from the DC office on behalf of you guys. We told them the same story we are posting online.
Even though we fully understand that this situation is not ideal for anyone - This behavior constantly exacerbates the situation. Constantly pushing us and badmouthing every step of the way will not magically result in a refund tomorrow.
As for the online addy quote - yes, in case of a dissolution the creditors come first. It is not a threat, it is reality. Orders are NOT considered loans. We are committed to a refund but we are also facing headwinds due to ongoing barrage of negative press by 3-4 users.
At the end of the day, we are where we are- we owe ~21k to around 7 people. This is coming from a single vendor.
We have happy customers, we have customers who are waiting for their ideal bike and we are making them as we go along. Some have been waiting for a year but we have compensated them in ways we can (send them a demo bike for use at our risk, or upgrade parts before delivery at no cost).
No one talks about the cool things we do - the 3-4 users are bandwagoning daily about the couple of things we have already committed to resolve - and is taking incredibly long to resolve.
I am not asking you guys to stop - its a free country.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
Again, I’ve stated facts, not badmouthing. Like BashCram pointed out, do not frame us as the bad guys.
I’m glad the AGO is taking action. Someone needs to, to protect us consumers.
I’m glad the AGO is taking action. Someone needs to, to protect us consumers.
pushkar
Well-Known Member
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
So, each of the Helios bikes was to have ~$3k in parts from Gates?
I think simple updates in the founder forum when things changed or a deadline wasn't met (bike part/build updates, or refund timelines) would have prevented most of this. Communication was great initially, but number of updates did slow down over time. I'd think most people would understand the situation many companies are in today - this situation was largely controlled by outside influences, and that indeed company funds have been tied up in inventory on a product that WW had/had all intentions to build, and continue to sell for years. I think pushkar has been largely honest about the issues for the last couple years, but the silence past deadlines (in this case, deadline that wasn't met due to lack of response from Gates) hasn't gone over well.
For a long time Pushkar did treat "superbike founders" almost like investers of the company, in that he provided details about things that were beyond of the scope of the superbike itself, and by the frequent updates. It's when those stopped that people began to get antsy. They aren't under any obligation to the superbike founders to lay out the internal workings of the company though - we aren't stakeholders in the company.
Large companies and small have had issues with projections falling short. I haven't said much as it has indeed seemed like WW has been stuck between two hard places, and I honestly believe they're trying to dig out from the worldwide mess that was the last 2 years. Supply issues will probably continue for at least 1 more year imo. Maybe even longer if we go into a recession, in the official meaning of the word. Hopefully that's all avoided, and over the next year we begin to see more consumer spending, and these startups that offered more than the market has previously provided can come back with a vengeance.
For a long time Pushkar did treat "superbike founders" almost like investers of the company, in that he provided details about things that were beyond of the scope of the superbike itself, and by the frequent updates. It's when those stopped that people began to get antsy. They aren't under any obligation to the superbike founders to lay out the internal workings of the company though - we aren't stakeholders in the company.
Large companies and small have had issues with projections falling short. I haven't said much as it has indeed seemed like WW has been stuck between two hard places, and I honestly believe they're trying to dig out from the worldwide mess that was the last 2 years. Supply issues will probably continue for at least 1 more year imo. Maybe even longer if we go into a recession, in the official meaning of the word. Hopefully that's all avoided, and over the next year we begin to see more consumer spending, and these startups that offered more than the market has previously provided can come back with a vengeance.
Last edited:
pushkar
Well-Known Member
This is an example of completely disregarding all the communication. You are being willingly dense if I may say that.
I cant change that for you but I can share that the total returns are worth $20/21k... that is all the stuff we bought from them for the original set of bikes. It is different length belts, custom cogs, custom snubbers, tensioners, custom colors for parts .. yes, it adds up.
pushkar
Well-Known Member
Sure. And I loved sharing those.
At one point I even made a post that the delays were mentally affecting me.
To the point of providing regular updates - it is littered with negative responses when I was posting that the update was not positive (or that there were delays) .. at some point it became personal attacks. Again - beating someone over the head every single post did not / does not help.
I am not saying everyone did that, but then it's a group of 10-11 people. If 50% of them do it, all the time ... that is a LOT of negative stuff.
I honestly stopped responding because it was not helping at all. We were and are laser focussed on returning the money. Right now we dont have the inventory and we dont have the money returned - hopefully that will change soon.
I appreciate the perspective - and honestly after 2 years both parties are right in some way - and wrong in others. There is no right answer. We want to return the money as fast as we can within the bounds of what we can do. Unfortunately it keeps getting pushed out and we dont have control over it.
Of course - then bandwagons and Keyboard warriors chime in - Rome, Waxedwookie, zachDDs.
Jesus. I mean take a break guys - there is more to life than a single ebike maker who is trying to do something.
Shouting and berating is easy. It take a lot to build a company. We are facing some headwinds and we will come out of it. However, these users will continue to be the best keyboard warriors they can. Let them be.
I'd like to still thank you for what you're attempting to do. Any update to the frames that you could post in the founder forum? There may be few/no one left, but it still seems like a nice bike if it can get launched. I'm not sure if you're still working on a frame supplier, if there was anything else holding back the release of the Helios, or if you've put the project on hold for a couple years. Obviously with parts going back, I imagine a batch build is in the rear-view.
With a lot of people having returned to offices, and the potential for employers gaining the upper hand soon in forcing many other employees/new hires back into the office, I could only imagine commuter ebike purchases will start to pick up.
pushkar
Well-Known Member
We have the updated frames being tested. Full carbon, with full suspension, fully suspended rack. Was really hoping to surprise everyone with an actual product than a sketch but here is what we are running into.
1. ETA for Kindernay hubs was (is?) 2023 at the earliest if we had ordered back in Dec last year. 13-15 months out. Rohloff is similar and they won't case- probably more.
2. China has shut down so the mold that takes 45 days to build took nearly 6 months. We are close but we have lost SO much time.
Hoping to have something soon --- but will probably think of a September launch at this point realistically.
1. ETA for Kindernay hubs was (is?) 2023 at the earliest if we had ordered back in Dec last year. 13-15 months out. Rohloff is similar and they won't case- probably more.
2. China has shut down so the mold that takes 45 days to build took nearly 6 months. We are close but we have lost SO much time.
Hoping to have something soon --- but will probably think of a September launch at this point realistically.
I understand. These types of complaints/attacks wouldn't bother me. There's a plan in place, and if someone doesn't like it, I'd just stick to the plan.
My stance in life is that in the end we all die and none of it matters at that point, so why worry about things that are outside of my control
Just stick to the plan and do what makes you happy, and bring positivity to others in any way possible. Key word - possible. In the case of refunds, it sounds like you're doing everything possible, so there's nothing further you can provide to improve the situation. Maybe just 1-2 sentence weekly status updates and leave it at that, to appease Not sure if we're beyond that point now, but it sounds like Gates is dragging their feet, or flat out lying at this point.
Please provide more details, even if it's a copy/paste from somewhere else emailed to me directly. I'm curious what the helios...3.0(?) may look like. Changes from the last discussions of helios 2.0?
Sounds like things are shaping up to be more of a hybrid than ever before. I tried making a couple traditional FS bikes work as a commuter, but they were too far on the offroad/mountain bike side of things. IMO it needs to be more street than a 29er FS typically works out, which ime isn't great.
onlineaddy
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- San Diego, CA, USA
Wow, absolutely incredible. No, you may not call me dense. A simple answer to my question would have been a Yes or No.
I have not been the one berating others. You did, above. And you continue to call us names, such as keyboard warriors, for bringing to light how you have conducted business with us. I simply want my money back. It's as simple as that.
