UK petition to change the law to allow >250W

[Fr0d0]

Please sign the linked petition to insrease the current restriction on uk ebikes from 250W maximum

Thank you!


Petition:

Petition: Petition to increase the 25kmh limit on electric bikes in the UK.

All electric bikes in the UK are subject to an assisted speed limit of 25Kmh. After this speed the bike can be ridden quicker, but the rider will no longer receive assistance from the motor. We would like the government to consider adjusting the limits to be in line with US legislation of 20Mph.

petition.parliament.uk

Story:

Should e-bike speeds be increased? Petition launched to raise assisted speed to 20mph in the UK

As the government outlined plans to get more people out of cars and using alternatives like e-bikes in their Gear Change document launched this week, a new petition is calling for a review of current e-bike laws that caps motor power at 250 watts and limits assisted speeds to 15.5mph (25kph)...

ebiketips.road.cc

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It is a very silly demand. While rising the PAS restriction to 32 km/h (20 mph) makes sense, any decent 250 W (nominal) mid-drive motor e-bike from a respected brand is more than good enough. Only a person who's never ridden such a bike can think otherwise.

 

[Dewey]

I disagree with the statement in the article “ the current limit reduces the likelihood that people will swap their car for an electric bike". My British nephew is an Olympic athlete and I tried to get him interested in riding an ebike to commute, but friends all told him it’s too dangerous to ride on the roads and his Dad bought him an old car. The answer is not to decouple the UK from the EU market regulations but to make cycling safer in Britain with sustained investment in separated bicycle infrastructure to realize the future vision recently outlined by the government. The Netherlands spends what 30 euros per person per year on cycling, the UK should aspire to that level of investment if it’s serious about making cycling part of a green economy. But it won’t because cars.

 

[Fr0d0]

It is a very silly demand. While rising the PAS restriction to 32 km/h (20 mph) makes sense, any decent 250 W (nominal) mid-drive motor e-bike from a respected brand is more than good enough. Only a person who's never ridden such a bike can think otherwise.

Where I live in Wales with a 250w motor I'd be walking the bike most of the time. 250w would be fine on the flat/ small inclines. The Netherlands/ the land of the bike has no hills at all. They're not going to complain about the limit, it probably originated there.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

No, you wouldn't. Ask @RabH, he's Scottish.
My Vado 5.0 takes 14% inclines easily. My Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro takes 20% grades. What are you riding?

 

[Fr0d0]

I disagree with the statement in the article “ the current limit reduces the likelihood that people will swap their car for an electric bike". My British nephew is an Olympic athlete and I tried to get him interested in riding an ebike to commute, but friends all told him it’s too dangerous to ride on the roads and his Dad bought him an old car. The answer is not to decouple the UK from the EU market regulations but to make cycling safer in Britain with sustained investment in separated bicycle infrastructure to realize the future vision recently outlined by the government. The Netherlands spends what 30 euros per person per year on cycling, the UK should aspire to that level of investment if it’s serious about making cycling part of a green economy. But it won’t because cars.

I don't see why an athlete would want an electric bike unless they were competing using one.
I agree though that the infrastructure is a massive concern.. but with no bikes to use the cycle lanes why invest?

 

[Dewey]

I don't see why an athlete would want an electric bike unless they were competing using one.
I agree though that the infrastructure is a massive concern.. but with no bikes to use the cycle lanes why invest?

He wanted to commute to work and training but use the ride as a cool down not for exercise. Yes I agree it is frustrating the supply chain problems affecting all countries, we should be enjoying a cycling boom if only people could get hold of bikes. The video of cyclists in London during the shutdown was very encouraging, people will use the bicycle provided more traffic separated infrastructure so I think the recent announcement is good timing while the experience is fresh in peoples minds.

Regarding ebikes in the UK it's interesting to see a trend within the existing regulations from British designers towards more lightweight ebikes eg Islabikes eIcons, Brompton electric, GoCycle, ARCC Bikes, etc. Granted the average ebike in the UK is more likely to be from Halfords/Decathlon/Evans or from a bike shop brand or an independent importer. A recent podcast episode of the Bike Show/Jack Thurston demonstrates the potential for improved long distance touring/cycling tourism and ebikes could play a part in encouraging that, makes me want to buy his Lost Lanes book series.

 

[Fr0d0]

No, you wouldn't. Ask @RabH, he's Scottish.
My Vado 5.0 takes 14% inclines easily. My Giant Trance E+ 2 Pro takes 20% grades. What are you riding?

We've tried 250W bikes and they don't do it. Probably cheaper than yours. 250W nominal is that 250W all told? I forget. I see the US 750W limit means just that - not 750W nominal with 1000w+ max.

 

[Dewey]

We've tried 250W bikes and they don't do it. Probably cheaper than yours. 250W nominal is that 250W all told? I forget. I see the US 750W limit means just that - not 750W nominal with 1000w+ max.

Stefan lives in Poland so subject to EU regs, but here in the US the 750w limit while being adopted into more state's law is based off a CPSC government regulation about what can be sold as an ebike, but while 250w nominal motors are the norm for ebikes from the big 3 & EU brands, there is a large presence here of Chinese imports using big wattage motors, and not much US ebike case law I can find in Lexis-Nexis or HeinOnline mentions power limits, or the presence/absence of a throttle, here people are usually convicted of poor choices/behavior, typically speeding or riding recklessly or while drunk, etc. That might change in future as a few ebike brands blur the lines between mopeds and ebikes, a couple years ago the Netherlands had a short lived experiment allowing mopeds on their bicycle infrastructure, but people pushed back and they are banned again. The push here in the US has been simply to permit legal Class 1-3 ebikes to ride on bicycle paths and multi-use trails and frequently these are left to trail authorities to regulate keeping existing trail speed limits and I haven't read of anyone arguing against that, us ebike commuters and trail riders just would like to see some equitable treatment with pedal cyclists instead of obliging us to break some silly municipal regulation dating from the days of 2-stroke mopeds, or as in the case of the Hudson River Greenway ebike ban enacted in New York City this summer by a tiny group of wealthy well connected people demonstrating pearl-clutching Nimbyism, and does not reflect real-world ebike rider behavior measured in multiple academic studies using telemetery and gps location sensors showing very small speed differences between ebike and pedal bikes on trails.

 

[Fr0d0]

Personally I have no interest in speed at all. All I want is enough torque in a rear hub motor to make it up hills unaided. Speed limited to 15mph and enough torque would be absolutely fine.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Any e-bike with a 250 W (nominal) mid-motor from Bosch, Specialized/Brose, Yamaha/Giant, and Shimano is capable of ascending steep hills. All e-MTB from respected brands are 250 W nominal. In fact, these provide up to 520-560 W peak power when necessary but these meet the 250 W nominal criterion. If anyone complains about poor climbing capability of 250 W motors it indicates it was a Chinese hub-drive motor that is not a good climber with a tendency to overheat.

A 250 W L1e-B EU e-bike (known as Class 3 in the U.S.) can achieve 40 km/h effortlessly, and 45 km/h (28 mph) with some effort. A derestricted 250 W e-MTB can easily hit 50 km/h. There is no reason to allow higher power monsters on roads; what should be changed is to increase the PAS limit to 32 km/h in Europe & UK.

@Fr0d0: Why don't you just demo-ride a decent e-bike with the mid-motor of the leading brand?

 

[Fr0d0]

Because I'm not that rich Stefan. A few people here seem to sneer on anyone who doesn't have £2500 to spend on a quality e-bike.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

You cannot say 250 W cannot do the hills. You are not well off enough Fr0d0 to ride uphill with a 250 W e-bike. That's why I called the petition "silly". Not you.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yet, let me ask you another question: Don't the Welsh ride up their hills on unassisted bikes?

 

[Dewey]

Don't the Welsh ride up their hills on unassisted bikes?

Yes they do! My British cycling hero Jack Thurston heads the Abergavenny Cycle Group, has written a great book about the subject, and recently spoke eloquently on his podcast about the joys of cycle touring in Wales - at the 12':35" mark Jack talks about the advantages of being able to easily load your bicycle on the guards van of the 'Gerald of Wales' train from the North of Wales back to Cardiff.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Yes they do! My British cycling hero Jack Thurston heads the Abergavenny Cycle Group, has written a great book about the subject, and recently spoke eloquently on his podcast about the joys of cycle touring in Wales.

Now, an average cyclist can provide 100 W of power to the bike cranks. Add 250 W to it, and you are a competing cyclist. The trouble with the hub-drive is it is providing constant assistance and does not cooperate with the rider by multiplying the crank torque via drive-train as the mid-motor does. Hence the desire of the hub-drive e-bike rider to increase the motor power, to be effectively ridden up the hill as if it were an e-motorcycle.

Yet, I also own a 250 W hub-drive e-bike and can ride uphill, only in low gears and slowly.

Powerful hub-drive motor requires a large battery. That makes the e-bike heavy, which makes ascending even harder... etc. Also, ascents "eat" the battery charge (directly depending on weight), so even larger a battery, even heavier e-bike... and that goes into the loop.

 

[Dewey]

A few people here seem to sneer on anyone who doesn't have £2500 to spend on a quality e-bike.

Just keep on keeping on. I've been on this forum for 4 years and no-one has criticized me for riding a BBS01 kit converted $500 pedal bicycle. I thought it would be a good way to get into ebike commuting at a reasonable cost, we all start somewhere, but I admit I have aspirations to buy an OEM ebike some day, in my fantasies I keep going back and forth between something from Giant/Momentum so I can support my favorite local bike shop, or something lightweight (haha only if I lose weight)

 

[RandallS]

Personally I have no interest in speed at all. All I want is enough torque in a rear hub motor to make it up hills unaided. Speed limited to 15mph and enough torque would be absolutely fine.

I think here's the crux of the matter - Hub vs Mid drive.

My experience with my 10 year old Hub driven bike (350 watt BionX) vs my new 250W Yamaha powered Giant, is like night and day. My memory is still reasonably good, and since I'm riding in generally the same areas still, I can categorically attest that my old bike with 100W more than my new bike NEVER EVER climbed as well.

Now, whether or not a newer, more modern Hub drive would climb better than my 10 year old one, I'd think it would be safe to say that yes it probably would. But I cannot imagine it powering up some of the hills I've gone up lately. To be fair, my new bike has the Giant Syncdrive PRO with 80 Nm is top tier, but their Sport motor at 70Nm sure climbed well when I test rode a different bike.

As always "I reserve the right o be wrong"!

However, having said all the above, not everyone has the budget to buy bikes with high end components (including motors).
To the OP, I hope you can find a bike that suits your purposes within your budget, and that common sense prevails on the regulatory side.

My $0.02

 

[Fr0d0]

Yet, let me ask you another question: Don't the Welsh ride up their hills on unassisted bikes?

I don't get why on earth you would object to a reasonably powered motor made lawful. Sure we can all burn out our motors proving that we're real men.

 

[RandallS]

I don't get why on earth you would object to a reasonably powered motor made lawful. Sure we can all burn out our motors proving that we're real men.

I may be incorrect, but I don't see Stafan objecting to a change in the law, but I think he is expressing his opinion that that change is probably unnecessary.

But having said that, it's your country and if you and others feel it is needed, then petition away.

My opinion is that the laws/regulations around ebikes are typically just guidelines (as you can import a 1000W Bafang Ultra and install it) and in general, if the existing rules about speeds on paths would be enforced on speed demons of any type, then the regulations on maximum wattage become moot.

The speed limits on our roads apply the same to a VW Polo as to a Ferrari.
Why would there be a need for a law that doesn't allow you to have more Horsepower or torque?