Alaskan
Well-Known Member
The answer is NO. THey are both in the same general price range, depending on configuration. You can spend more on a Creo. If you want exact numbers do a couple of google searches on the Trek and Specialized sites.
Trek Domane+ HP 7 vs Specialized Turbo Creo SL Carbon Comp
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markybolton
Member
Have you had it updated with the new software? If so then had the rode changed for you?
I did have it updated with the newest software update on 12/29/20 but I haven't rode it yet as it is too cold and I'm primarily only emtb'ing while the weather is cold. I bought a Trek Rail 9.7 electric mountain bike in October. I love riding it and usually only get to ride on weekends so it'll be a while before I get back on the Domane. I can't tell you how much I really enjoy riding these two ebikes. I can push these bikes further and harder and about the only thing hurting is the muscles in my face from the big smile
I have riding.markybolton
Member
Thought this video may have been of interest! You really have to work hard on the Turbo Creo SL to hit those high top speed! I hit them easily on my HP with tires half filled! You made the right choice!
This is not useful comparison, these are two different bikes. One with a powerful standard motor but still twice the weight of an organic race bike. The other one with an assist drive, which of course due to it's name/purpose gives less power, but a much lighter and more natural bike and ride feeling. I have a swiss Stromer speed pedelec to ride to work allday with about 4 times the max. power of the Creo and I guess 2 times the Power of the Trek. It it would blow away both bikes and there lap times. Is it therefore the better bike? No, it's twice the weight of the Creo/10kg more then the Trek and feels like a light motor bike/a moped/mokick.
But all three have there purposes and there territories!
But all three have there purposes and there territories!
I rode the Creo SL and really liked it. Did not think it felt underpowered. I chose the Trek for a couple reasons one is the Trek dealer is a friend and in my local city. The Specialized store is about 30 minutes away. Not a big deal but not as easy access as the Trek store. Also though I don’t need the Bosch power now at the age of 63 I might need it in a few years and I would like this at $7000+ to be more than a few years use bike. Both I believe are great bicycles.
markybolton
Member
I know the Stromer is suppose to be fast and a lot of technology but it is still a hub motor and maybe on the flat but I am not so sure on hills! I read that the ST3 has 44 newtons compared to the higher amount of the specialized and almost half of the Trek. With 44 newtons, I wouldn't boast that hard! I have a kent and two other hub motors bike. They have quick pick up and push over hills but are very trying over larger grade hills where the Trek just glides through them!
This is also not a fair view. I bought the Creo for (longer) sportive tours, to have small support uphill but still with a light bike with joy to ride. But I also bought the fat Stromer monster, to ride to work allday allyear for many years. It was my replacement for a car together with it's Bosch predecessor for more than 6 years. With the much smaller support and average speed of the Creo I would not have cycled to work so often, maybe only 1-2 than 4-5 times a week and also with the need to own a car.
The same for the Trek, if you have the need for the extra power, it's fine and definitely better than not riding a bike!
But you are right, that every hub motor has its limits uphill. But newton meters are measured differently for hub motors and middle/gear motors, you can't compare the Nm in their data sheets.
The first Stromer were still poor uphill. But the second generation ST1X/ST2/ST2S is very good uphill. Around 5% degree uphill (depending on rider's weight) you are much faster than all other standard (middle) motors like in the Trek, even if you go miles like this. From more or less 10% degree uphill on the Stromer starts slowly to loose power. But it takes a while, a few hundred height meters, until it's slower than the Bosch and even more until the Bosch is faster over all the uphill.
In my standard tour here about 50km and 1100hm, my average speed was about the same with the Stromer and my Bosch (same motor/drive like the Trek). When I increased the hm in the tour, the Bosch slowly got faster, when I increased tour length with the same hm, the Stromer got faster.
The new ST3 and ST5 of the third generation have even more power, but motor control is different and more far flat regions, where they are beasts. But uphill perfomance is not as good as the second generation.
The same for the Trek, if you have the need for the extra power, it's fine and definitely better than not riding a bike!
I didn't want to start a discussion if middle motor or hub motors are better. My Stromer was just an example for a very powerful E-Bike/more than the Trek. Take a M1 Spitzing or somthing similiar with a very powerful middle motor.
But you are right, that every hub motor has its limits uphill. But newton meters are measured differently for hub motors and middle/gear motors, you can't compare the Nm in their data sheets.
The first Stromer were still poor uphill. But the second generation ST1X/ST2/ST2S is very good uphill. Around 5% degree uphill (depending on rider's weight) you are much faster than all other standard (middle) motors like in the Trek, even if you go miles like this. From more or less 10% degree uphill on the Stromer starts slowly to loose power. But it takes a while, a few hundred height meters, until it's slower than the Bosch and even more until the Bosch is faster over all the uphill.
In my standard tour here about 50km and 1100hm, my average speed was about the same with the Stromer and my Bosch (same motor/drive like the Trek). When I increased the hm in the tour, the Bosch slowly got faster, when I increased tour length with the same hm, the Stromer got faster.
The new ST3 and ST5 of the third generation have even more power, but motor control is different and more far flat regions, where they are beasts. But uphill perfomance is not as good as the second generation.
You can not make that comparison, I think you should research on what those torque values mean first (lot's of discussion and explanation on the issue can be found even in these forums). If you can keep ST3 at least around 12mph then it will give more power than a Bosch. If it is so steep that you are not capable of doing so then mid drive will climb better given it has the right gearing you can still keep it at the cadence where it is still in its high powerband.
I can not give an exact grade when one will be better than the other since your weight will make a significant difference. I climb grades exceeding %20 regularly with my bosch, yamaha and my stromer. All can climb but when close to %20 my mid drives are easier. I climb %20 on eco on my Bosch, Yamaha(also on my regular bike) and I don't think I can do it on eco on my Stromer(it will probably be harder than my regular bike, it is heavy).
That being said on lower grades, <%10, my Stromer is much faster than my Bosch mid drive. Also I love how smooth Stromer is, I don't know about the first or second generation but mine is very smooth, completely silent and has a great pedaling feel.
If I had the choice/funds, I would have gotten Creo for weekend rides since I want minimal support in those rides. Perfect for having some support on the hills and keep a higher speed and riding like a nice regular road bike on the flats without support.
I started this thread knowing that the Creo SL and Domane+ HP are similar, though different. I had been exploring fast commuters, and I thought my observations could be helpful for some EBR members. They both mimic a traditional road bike, and they both have mid-drive motors. Frankly, the primary differentiation is that Trek took on an extra ~10 lbs in exchange for a larger battery and a more powerful motor.
That said, I did actually end up with a Stromer, though a key reason for that decision is that I found a used one for half the price of a Domane+ HP.
The lack of torque, for me, is not an issue because my commute doesn’t have much in the way of hills. I have learned that there is no way the Creo SL would have been sufficient for what I’m looking to do. Maybe with an extra battery pack the Domane+ HP would have worked.
All of this is mainly to say: we are fortunate to have such a huge diversity of ebikes to choose from. The “right” or “best” one is a highly personal and highly situation specific decision.
I see this forum as a way for people to share their experiences and data to help other forum members make Informed decisions.
That said, I did actually end up with a Stromer, though a key reason for that decision is that I found a used one for half the price of a Domane+ HP.
The lack of torque, for me, is not an issue because my commute doesn’t have much in the way of hills. I have learned that there is no way the Creo SL would have been sufficient for what I’m looking to do. Maybe with an extra battery pack the Domane+ HP would have worked.
All of this is mainly to say: we are fortunate to have such a huge diversity of ebikes to choose from. The “right” or “best” one is a highly personal and highly situation specific decision.
I see this forum as a way for people to share their experiences and data to help other forum members make Informed decisions.
Johnny, you say your Stromer is "much faster" than the Bosch mid drive on lower grades less than 10%. How much faster? My Domane goes to 28 mph no problem.
You can go 28mph on %10 ? I think you meant almost flat roads. On flats both bikes hit 28mph legal limit without a problem(Stromer accelerates faster though).
But here is the thing, we are not here to open a debate on which is better. The point is Creo and Hp are different bikes and appeal to different riders. One should not dismiss Creo because of power since there is always a more powerful bike you can ride.
Enjoy your ride...
I was only asking how much faster since you stated the Stromer was faster. I'm not wanting to debate which is better either. See my ealier post above: I don't think one is any better than the other just the right one for me. The Creo is probably better suited for a younger stronger rider than myself at 67 yr. old. Ride On.
It depends on the grade, weight, how much I am pushing etc. but in my rides difference is usually over 4mph.
markybolton
Member
I am not disagreeing with you! Hub motor are faster on flats and even small incline! They work independently of pedaling from the rider. I have had hub motor and I love the push they give. Mid drives make you work which is a more bike feel. The power is the ability to power up inclines that would give a hub motor pause. It is the reason most emtb are mid drive based.
markybolton
Member
Yup I can make the comparison and you just confirmed it! Torque would be based on rotational force not based on speed! A hub drive usually works independent of the riders pedaling only cutting out at a specific speed by the throttle or regulated. It is usually going to be faster then if you have to pedal to get there which is why your Stromer will be faster then the Bosch. The inclines and weight will make a difference which in the higher numbers, the higher newtons and rider's pedaling of the mid drive working together will overcome the advantage of a hub motor!
Oski1997
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I know of two other ROAD bikes with motors that are about 30% more powerful than the Trek Domain and Specialized Creo:
Have you considered the Yamaha Civante? It offers 70nm of torque support put to 110 cadence and has a 500wh batter. I use it on the two highest levels going 28 mph and up steep climbs and can easily get 50miles out of my battery. It costs $3,399. If you need components higher than Tiagra then the Giant offers similar specs with Ultegra components.
The only other ROAD bike (that I know of) that offers 28mph and high torque (E+Pro supports 85nm) and high cadence support (120) is the Giant E+Pro. This bike costs $4,700 but it does have Ultegra components and a powerful PW-X2 motor (equivalent to the Bosch 4th gen motor).
The reason the Specialized SL 1.1 motor felt weaker is because it only offers 35nm of torque support. And the Trek Domaine only offers 55nm of torque support. If you’re in good physical shape, then you don’t need more torque support. If you’re not in good shape, then these bikes will have a hard time going up 15% grade climbs because it’ll be mostly your strength propelling you up the hills =)
If you’re open to a GRAVEL bike, Canyon is the only other bike that offers high torque and cadence support. Their Grail:On gravel bike is a very capable bike with great specs. Because it’s a Gravel bike, it only offers one chainring so going a steady 28mph prob isn’t going to be as easy as on the Civante or Giant.
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