Tires - size does matter?

[steve mercier]

Intriguing
1. Why 40Ah?
2. Why 25Kg rack? and Sprung or unsprung ?

That gives me enough to go about 120 km at full speed ( about 30 kmh average speed). Imagine a 50 km ride plus a 2000 metre mountain climb without charging. The rack would not need to carry nearly that much weight if the battery weight is somewhere else on the bike. Unsprung would work fine. Right now I usually carry 3 Bosch powerpacks ( sometimes 4) so if that much battery power could be attached to the bike it would be a good thing. I cannot do this with only 2 powerpacks unless I go slowly. If I am trying to replace a car I need the bike to haul groceries too ,hence the 25kg ask. I could pull a trailer for Costco runs but most of the time I would rather not use the trailer. Basically wishing for one bike that can do everything.

 

[pushkar]

Those are some big goals. The only thing i am curious about is 2000 meter climb .. what elevation are you climbing ? Are you close to any EV charging stations on the way up or at the summit of your climb?

 

[steve mercier]

Those are some big goals. The only thing i am curious about is 2000 meter climb .. what elevation are you climbing ? Are you close to any EV charging stations on the way up or at the summit of your climb?

No the local mountains have none yet as far as I know. But of course you do not need a charger at the top do you? The three local mountains are Seymour at 1500 meters ,Grouse at 1200 and Hollyburn at 1300. I have done all 3 climbs in one trip using 4 Bosch powerpacks ( they call it the triple crown around here). There must be some chargers that could be accessed near the bottoms of each one. Hmm that is interesting , I like your thinking!

 

[smorgasbord]

I just installed Tannus Armour for my Luna X1 front tire last night. Holy cow what an ordeal.

I started a thread on this here.

Mine came folded in retail boxes. They were OK. I let them sit out a couple days. I found that the tires themselves make a big difference. My two sets were both Maxxis Chronicles, but one had puncture protections and one didn't. The set with built-in puncture protection was MUCH harder to install, but once I got past having to inflate the things to a lot more than the max pressure just to seat the bead, it was OK.

I think after you've done a few, you get the hang of it.

The key is to use talcum powder. Lots of it. With what I saw in your pictures, I'd suggest mounting, inflating to maximum pressure, let them sit a day or so, then deflate almost all the way, let them site a few days, then re-inflate - at least if you have talc in there so the tubes/inserts can slide against each other when reinflated. Also, when partially inflated, you can massage the inserts through the tire to help get things aligned.

 

[smorgasbord]

Is it possible to have one bike (and one set of tires) that can be equally effective and enjoyable on the streets as on beginner and intermediate mountain trails? Is the CrossTour that bike?

With eBikes, it's possible. I would suggest the Travalanche. You literally can't beat full-suspension off-road, and it even helps smooth on-road riding better than any seatpost. You don't need/want fat tires unless you're riding on sand and the like. The more difficult part is finding tires that have good off-road grip but aren't bumpy on-road. I ended up with Maxxis Chronicles because I wanted a full 3.0" width, but Schwabe Smart-Sams would be my first choice if I wanted 2.6" widths.

Note I haven't' ridden the Travalanche, but it's pretty close to my Luna Apollo in many ways (and better in some). I really like carbon fiber full-suspension bikes. I don't know the Travalanche geometry off-hand, but I was able to change out the stem and handlebar on the Apollo so my wife would have a mostly upright riding position on hers (I'm a bit more aggressive, but not as aggressive as stock). We do mostly on-road stuff, but do like to venture off-road.

The only issue with full-suspension bikes, IMO, is getting a strong rear rack. Only Riese and Muller and Frey have that - but not with carbon-fiber frames. Since I don't commute, this hasn't been an issue and I've been doing fine with a seatpost mounted rack and a small rack bag (just enough to hold lunch and windbreaker).

 

[steve mercier]

I started a thread on this here.

Mine came folded in retail boxes. They were OK. I let them sit out a couple days. I found that the tires themselves make a big difference. My two sets were both Maxxis Chronicles, but one had puncture protections and one didn't. The set with built-in puncture protection was MUCH harder to install, but once I got past having to inflate the things to a lot more than the max pressure just to seat the bead, it was OK.

I think after you've done a few, you get the hang of it.

The key is to use talcum powder. Lots of it. With what I saw in your pictures, I'd suggest mounting, inflating to maximum pressure, let them sit a day or so, then deflate almost all the way, let them site a few days, then re-inflate - at least if you have talc in there so the tubes/inserts can slide against each other when reinflated. Also, when partially inflated, you can massage the inserts through the tire to help get things aligned.

Or get the LBS to install them. Better yet ,have them already installed at the factory like Pushkar is doing!

 

[Ebiker33]

I posted this in another thread, but this is a shout out to 26" X 4" fatties, I think you need really good tires and rims to pull this off on a hard tail bike.

Don't try this at home kids

 

[JES2020]

I just installed Tannus Armour for my Luna X1 front tire last night. Holy cow what an ordeal. I sure hope you have thought about the labor involved in installing these pushkar.

I had purchased Armour for my Frey CC but never installed them. I was planning to put them in my Luna X1 but needed to go up a size as the X1 has plus size tires. I talked to Tannus America and they said I could swap them out if I ordered a set from them. The ones I originally ordered from Amazon came in retail box and they rebounded perfectly. The set I ordered from Tannus America was folded very aggressively and did not rebound back into shape. Tannus America told me not to worry about it that it doesn't affect performance but I could not get my wheel to spin without tire wobble. I spent a good hour or two massaging the inserts and got it good enough (or so I convinced myself) but I am pretty sure the remaining wobble is these places where the armor is deformed.

Here is a picture of the armor from Tannus America versus what came in my retail box. I have not had a chance to ride yet and not looking forward to doing the rear wheel haha.

Useful info there.
As I was researching the Tannus, I found several other options and decided to order the less expensive ($10) option of Mr Tuffie like inserts. Seems they would be easier to install as well and if I don't like the result I can go with the Tannus.
Or, as a friend of mine mentioned, I can take old slicks and cut them down to fit between the tube and tire ...it also gives ride flat protection and dirt cheap.

 

[steve mercier]

Useful info there.
As I was researching the Tannus, I found several other options and decided to order the less expensive ($10) option of Mr Tuffie like inserts. Seems they would be easier to install as well and if I don't like the result I can go with the Tannus.
Or, as a friend of mine mentioned, I can take old slicks and cut them down to fit between the tube and tire ...it also gives ride flat protection and dirt cheap.

Unless I am mistaken Mr Tuffy is just a tire liner as opposed to a full insert. I know that David Berry uses both tire liners and Tannus Armours , as well as flat- proof tires and slime! He clearly hates flats as much as I do.

 

[TomW]

That is cool Pushkar! If I am imagining all the items I would like on an Ebike it would start with a FS bike like the Travelanche and add a 40Ah battery capacity , fenders ,lights , 25kg capacity rear rack ,Tannus armours inside Magic Mary tires and of course the option to easily de-limit the bike. (-:

My last tyres were magic mary's, I never got a single puncture with them, and that is just using standard tubes. If you go for the downhill casing version I doubt you will need armours. And they are brilliant tyres in general,
I'm running Minions ATM and I am still trying to work out which tyre I prefer.

If you want to do a mix of everything offroad and onroad then the Travelanch is what I would choose. But I doubt a rear rack would work on it, and 25kg is kinda heavy to have up above your rear wheel.
Not just because that weight high up will unbalance the bike.
(most wheels will advise that you do not exceed total bike and rider weight levels this will be around 130 - 150kg normally)
So if you add your weight and the bikes plus your intended cargo it may be close to that.
It has a long travel rear end so the gap between the wheel and seat tube reduces by a large amount when you compress the suspension there just would not be the room. And full suspension bikes in general do not cater for things like panier's etc so I doubt that you could mount one easily. When I need to carry anything large or heavy I just put it in a 60 ltr back pack.

The nice thing about any Ultra bike is you have plenty of power so you can have the long travel suspension, fatter tyres etc without comprimising that much on the commutability of the bike.

 

[RAB63]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I really appreciate the responses. When you spec out the Travelanch with all the top equipment, the price comes close to the R&M Superdelight. I understand that the BF Ultra has more power and is a better motor. My current bike peaks at about 1100 and that is plenty of power to get me up the steepest hills. At some point the BF Ultra becomes overkill. If the trade off becomes a better motor with the WW Travelanch v. a fully functioning rear rack on the FS Superdelight, things get interesting. R&M does make a beautiful product, with 2 integrated batteries. Is the Bosch powerful enough to get me up the hilly trails of the Santa Monica mountains? Does the throttle that comes with the WW Bafang tilt the scales back in WW’s favor? Certainly a test ride of the R&M is in order. Being so far from Massachusetts, a test ride of the WW is likely not going to happen. That is unless Pushkar has sold a similar WW to somebody in So. Cal who is gracious enough to let me take their ride for a spin. That raises an interesting idea: perhaps Pushkar creates “brand ambassadors“ in select cities throughout the country, who in exchange for making their bikes available for test rides, receive upgrades or some other incentive. I am all for small companies with entrepreneurs like Pushkar that take on the big boys. But when the big boys make a nice product and have a dealer network for support, meeting the competition is not enough, you need to EXCEEED. I have some thinking to do, but it is nice to have choices.

 

[Ebiker33]

@RAB63
The R & M is a great product, but keep in mind it is built primarily for the European market that is throttling the power with a low amp controller, it's also 2 generations behind on batteries at only 36V.
Personally I wouldn't pay almost 10K for a product that has battery technology lagging behind that much. Do research as to why 52V is the King of the Ebike industry now.

Actually here is a chart to help you understand the power curve you get.

 

[TomD]

Not sure what that chart demonstrates other than total voltage for the same cellls arranged differently. Is the US are we generations behind Europe because we use 120 volt AC instead of 240?

 

[byunbee]

Thank you all for your thoughts. I really appreciate the responses. When you spec out the Travelanch with all the top equipment, the price comes close to the R&M Superdelight. I understand that the BF Ultra has more power and is a better motor. My current bike peaks at about 1100 and that is plenty of power to get me up the steepest hills. At some point the BF Ultra becomes overkill. If the trade off becomes a better motor with the WW Travelanch v. a fully functioning rear rack on the FS Superdelight, things get interesting. R&M does make a beautiful product, with 2 integrated batteries. Is the Bosch powerful enough to get me up the hilly trails of the Santa Monica mountains? Does the throttle that comes with the WW Bafang tilt the scales back in WW’s favor? Certainly a test ride of the R&M is in order. Being so far from Massachusetts, a test ride of the WW is likely not going to happen. That is unless Pushkar has sold a similar WW to somebody in So. Cal who is gracious enough to let me take their ride for a spin. That raises an interesting idea: perhaps Pushkar creates “brand ambassadors“ in select cities throughout the country, who in exchange for making their bikes available for test rides, receive upgrades or some other incentive. I am all for small companies with entrepreneurs like Pushkar that take on the big boys. But when the big boys make a nice product and have a dealer network for support, meeting the competition is not enough, you need to EXCEEED. I have some thinking to do, but it is nice to have choices.

I want to provide some context around Bafang Ultra.

I don't think stock Bafang Ultra is a better motor than the Bosch Gen 4. If I had to choose between the two, I would pick the Bosch Gen4. Stock Bafang Ultra definitely offers substantially more power than the Bosch, however, the motor's power delivery is not linear, somewhat jerky, and have known to have delays in engagement and disengagement. Bosch motors are known to be very smooth and much more refined.

WIth that said, what Watt Wagon brings to the table is a Bafang Ultra motor with custom controller (Archon X1) that addresses the shortcomings of the stock Bafang Ultra, making the power delivery similar to Bosch motor by eliminating the jerkiness, offering instant engagement/disengagement, substantially increasing the power output over the stock 750W (upt to 2300W), all the while increasing the efficiency of the motor by 15-20%. There is also the throttle (throttle is available on stock Bafang Ultra as well) that Bosch doesn't offer and never will. The last major differentiator is that Watt Wagons offers the Kindernay IGH option, which has higher torque rating even than Rohloff and is modular (removable from the wheel). Here, I prefer the Bafang Ultra with Archon X1 over the Bosch Gen4. I'm one of the eagerly waiting customer of the new UC Pro.

I don't think choosing either R&M or Watt Wagon, you will go wrong, as they are both top-tier bikes that are very capable. But due to the motor power and throttle, I think they serve a slightly different consumer base.

My recommendation is to list out the criteria that are important to you and prioritize them. Also, test ride R&M as I know there are dealers in so cal. Unfortunately, due to Archon X1 being so recently released, I doubt that you will find folks in your area that have WW bikes with the new motor. If you're looking to test ride a Travalanche with the Archon X1 Ultra, that'll be even more challenging is my guess, but @pushkar may have some customers in your area that he might be able to persuade.

 

[BashCram]

Is the Bosch powerful enough to get me up the hilly trails of the Santa Monica mountains?

From my experience commuting in DC on a trek with a bosch performance speed motor, I think the answer is yes. Technically. You’ll have to push to keep up any speed up a decent hill, but it should help a lot. I’d say you don’t even have to find the particular bikes you’re interested in, but try to test ride bikes with motors similar to what you’re interested in.

 

[Ebiker33]

Not sure what that chart demonstrates other than total voltage for the same cellls arranged differently. Is the US are we generations behind Europe because we use 120 volt AC instead of 240?

I sell lot's of tools that are 240V within North America, we use 240V. It's just not our go to voltage as a starting standard, when we need more power we use it with no issue.

Here is what one company said about 52V.

"What is the point of having a 52V e-bike battery?

E-bikes have evolved from 24V to 36V, then 48V and now we have reached 52V. Basically, the higher voltage will let you get more performance out of your e-bike. The battery can be a little more efficient as you can use less current to produce the same amount of power, but the main point is overall better performance.

When this higher performance is combined with a larger pack capacity and the latest charging techniques, we can achieve a surprisingly high cycle life while maintaining very satisfying performance.

Can we use even higher pack voltages?

Not likely. The 52V battery pack when fully charged is 58.8V. This is just under the 60 Volt limit at which point the electronics system will be classified as “High Voltage” and there will be a much stricter set of regulations needed to certify the e-bike.

Any electronics that use higher voltage require higher standards to ensure safety. With more electric power comes the potential to cause injury or other issues. There are electric bikes out there that use voltages higher than 52V, but those are mainly custom builds. 52V provides safe, efficient and still powerful E-bikes, the bike will be noticeably faster and have better acceleration. Also as the pack discharges, you will notice less decrease in performance."

 

[RAB63]

When you say that R&M and WW "appeal to a slightly different customer base" can we explore that a bit?

I am in my late 50's and am not particularly handy with tools and bikes. I would like to plug in my bike, and go. I am fine with programming in my preferences, but for maintenance, I would likely rely on my LBS.

These bikes are fairly significant investments. Being relatively new to the eBike world, I don't have a good sense of how quickly technology is evolving. What I mean by that is how long should somebody expect to be happy with a $10K bike before the technology becomes outdated? Esthetically, it looks like incorporating the battery into the tube is a relatively new occurrence, as I notice that last year's R&M models had external batteries. I know that WW is going to that approach with the new commuter, and am assuming that is the trend they will follow with all of their bikes? It's not that I am trying to hide that my bike is electric, but I think it just looks cleaner. I am assuming that WW will soon be able to have 2 batteries integrated into the frame as R&M does? I am not exactly sure why, but that seems to make a difference to me.

I know that battery technologies will always improve, but I would think that today's battery technologies will not become obsolete (as opposed to outdated) for a good five years. It looks like WW is on the cutting edge in terms of motors and controllers. Brakes are brakes. It seems like wireless shifting is on the way, but the Rohloff and Kindernay have longevity. It sounds like WW is working on FS designs that can incorporate a rear rack? What other technological breakthroughs, if any, do you all believe will be potential "game changers" for eBikes in the next 2 to 3 years? Is now an appropriate time to spend $10K on a bike? Is there a decent secondary market for eBikes if the technologies become outdated? Other than the frame, what other eBike components cannot be upgraded over time if necessary?

Thank you.

 

[byunbee]

When you say that R&M and WW "appeal to a slightly different customer base" can we explore that a bit?

I am in my late 50's and am not particularly handy with tools and bikes. I would like to plug in my bike, and go. I am fine with programming in my preferences, but for maintenance, I would likely rely on my LBS.

These bikes are fairly significant investments. Being relatively new to the eBike world, I don't have a good sense of how quickly technology is evolving. What I mean by that is how long should somebody expect to be happy with a $10K bike before the technology becomes outdated? Esthetically, it looks like incorporating the battery into the tube is a relatively new occurrence, as I notice that last year's R&M models had external batteries. I know that WW is going to that approach with the new commuter, and am assuming that is the trend they will follow with all of their bikes? It's not that I am trying to hide that my bike is electric, but I think it just looks cleaner. I am assuming that WW will soon be able to have 2 batteries integrated into the frame as R&M does? I am not exactly sure why, but that seems to make a difference to me.

I know that battery technologies will always improve, but I would think that today's battery technologies will not become obsolete (as opposed to outdated) for a good five years. It looks like WW is on the cutting edge in terms of motors and controllers. Brakes are brakes. It seems like wireless shifting is on the way, but the Rohloff and Kindernay have longevity. It sounds like WW is working on FS designs that can incorporate a rear rack? What other technological breakthroughs, if any, do you all believe will be potential "game changers" for eBikes in the next 2 to 3 years? Is now an appropriate time to spend $10K on a bike? Is there a decent secondary market for eBikes if the technologies become outdated? Other than the frame, what other eBike components cannot be upgraded over time if necessary?

Thank you.

As with all technology, there will always be something better the longer you wait. Buying now vs later is really dependent on whether the current bike features meet your needs. If there is something that's critical to you and is not available, but you know its coming in the following year's model, that may give you reason to wait. I would say, right now is as good as any time to buy as we've left the stone age. The most important thing is to enjoy it now. You can't put a price on time or age.

As I've mentioned before, having dual battery is really dependent on how far you expect to ride. WW's 52v 17Ah battery should accommodate a vast majority of folks as it can likely reach 40-50 miles with PAS only. Incorporating dual batteries in an integrated manner is easier said than done and most likely can't be done with high capacity batteries. R&M's dual batteries have much lower capacity than the WW.

I expect to ride my new UC Pro for minimum of 5 years. If I decide later that I want a new model, I can probably sell it for a decent return (but that really depends on the market at the time).

If you want to minimize maintenance, regardless of R&M or WW, you should go with Rohloff/Kindernay and Gates belt driive.

What I meant by appealing to a slightly different customer base, I was mainly referring to the level of power and the use of throttle, which R&M doesn't offer. For many folks, the power provided by the Bosch Gen 4 will more than meet their need and they aren't too keen on having a throttle on a bike. For others like me, I want to have the power potential to tap into when I need it and also be able to throttle when I feel too tired to pedal.

 

[RAB63]

As with all technology, there will always be something better the longer you wait. Buying now vs later is really dependent on whether the current bike features meet your needs. If there is something that's critical to you and is not available, but you know its coming in the following year's model, that may give you reason to wait. I would say, right now is as good as any time to buy as we've left the stone age. The most important thing is to enjoy it now. You can't put a price on time or age.

As I've mentioned before, having dual battery is really dependent on how far you expect to ride. WW's 52v 17Ah battery should accommodate a vast majority of folks as it can likely reach 40-50 miles with PAS only. Incorporating dual batteries in an integrated manner is easier said than done and most likely can't be done with high capacity batteries. R&M's dual batteries have much lower capacity than the WW.

I expect to ride my new UC Pro for minimum of 5 years. If I decide later that I want a new model, I can probably sell it for a decent return (but that really depends on the market at the time).

If you want to minimize maintenance, regardless of R&M or WW, you should go with Rohloff/Kindernay and Gates belt driive.

What I meant by appealing to a slightly different customer base, I was mainly referring to the level of power and the use of throttle, which R&M doesn't offer. For many folks, the power provided by the Bosch Gen 4 will more than meet their need and they aren't too keen on having a throttle on a bike. For others like me, I want to have the power potential to tap into when I need it and also be able to throttle when I feel too tired to pedal.

Batteries seem to be a bit of a "black box" in the eBike world. Everybody claims to use the "best batteries" or touts their batteries as being high capacity. Is there really a significant difference between what R&M uses and the WW batteries? How do we know that? Has there been any comparative testing?

My current bike has a 48V 17ah Samsung battery that is rated "up to 80 miles" (at least that is how it is advertised). It seems like the battery lasts forever on relatively flat, paved streets. According to what I see on the display, assist levels 1 to 4 all draw under 500 watts (assist level 4 peaks out at about 480 watts). It's when I switch to assist level 5 that the wattage drain jumps to 1100 or 1200. Assist level 5 drains the battery much faster.

If I want to go riding on trails, I generally have to ride on paved roads and up hills to get there. So I might be down 20 to 25% before I get to the trails. While riding on trails, I find that I use assist levels 4 and 5 fairly often, especially when the terrain is bumpy and not flat. My current bike is heavy and riding without assistance on trails with uneven terrain and with hills would be very difficult. I haven't done too much trail riding yet, but the few times I have gone "range anxiety" becomes an issue. When the battery meter reduces to one or two bars, I start to worry about getting stuck in a canyon without enough battery. I have ridden as few as 10 to 15 miles total, and used 50% of the battery with assist level 5 use depending on the terrain of the trails. Even when I make it out of the canyon, I still need to ride back home. My hope is that a second incorporated battery would eliminate the "range anxiety" issue. I don't want to deal with bike racks, or removing the front tire to load the bike into the car.

When I see WW offer an option for up to 2300 Watts, wouldn't that significantly reduce battery range even with the WW batteries? My only frame of reference is that I know what 1100 Watts feels like on my current bike, and that is plenty fast. For me, on paved roads I think it is very important to be able to reach 28 mph to better blend in with the flow of traffic if necessary. Other than those instances, 20 to 25 mph is fast enough. Can you explain the practical use of 2300 watts of power?

 

[steve mercier]

Batteries seem to be a bit of a "black box" in the eBike world. Everybody claims to use the "best batteries" or touts their batteries as being high capacity. Is there really a significant difference between what R&M uses and the WW batteries? How do we know that? Has there been any comparative testing?

My current bike has a 48V 17ah Samsung battery that is rated "up to 80 miles" (at least that is how it is advertised). It seems like the battery lasts forever on relatively flat, paved streets. According to what I see on the display, assist levels 1 to 4 all draw under 500 watts (assist level 4 peaks out at about 480 watts). It's when I switch to assist level 5 that the wattage drain jumps to 1100 or 1200. Assist level 5 drains the battery much faster.

If I want to go riding on trails, I generally have to ride on paved roads and up hills to get there. So I might be down 20 to 25% before I get to the trails. While riding on trails, I find that I use assist levels 4 and 5 fairly often, especially when the terrain is bumpy and not flat. My current bike is heavy and riding without assistance on trails with uneven terrain and with hills would be very difficult. I haven't done too much trail riding yet, but the few times I have gone "range anxiety" becomes an issue. When the battery meter reduces to one or two bars, I start to worry about getting stuck in a canyon without enough battery. I have ridden as few as 10 to 15 miles total, and used 50% of the battery with assist level 5 use depending on the terrain of the trails. Even when I make it out of the canyon, I still need to ride back home. My hope is that a second incorporated battery would eliminate the "range anxiety" issue. I don't want to deal with bike racks, or removing the front tire to load the bike into the car.

When I see WW offer an option for up to 2300 Watts, wouldn't that significantly reduce battery range even with the WW batteries? My only frame of reference is that I know what 1100 Watts feels like on my current bike, and that is plenty fast. For me, on paved roads I think it is very important to be able to reach 28 mph to better blend in with the flow of traffic if necessary. Other than those instances, 20 to 25 mph is fast enough. Can you explain the practical use of 2300 watts of power?

Yeah you are surely right that the faster you want to go and the farther you want go and the higher you want to climb and the more weight you want to carry and the rougher the surface you want to ride the more range anxiety you will have... the only solution is more battery capacity. We have 6 x 13.5 Ah powerpacks between the 2 of us and it is not overkill and sometimes we need all of them. Carrying 3 each is not ideal weight-wise but until there is another tech breakthrough it will be the norm. I can remember when Ebikes were just a fantasy so the glass is half full for me.