With home appliances, sometimes failure can be a blessing as the efficiency on new appliances is so much better. When my 25 year old Maytag washing machine needed to be replaced I was bummed that this reliable old beast wasn't worth repair. But after getting the new washer and seeing that it uses so much less hot water and soap and still washes better than the old one, I realized that I hung on to the old one for too long.
The problem of the "disposable" ebike
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Mr. Coffee
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- A Demented Corner of the North Cascades
Ebikes
Battery can be replaced or refilled once during that period, and it should be standardized and easily available everywhere (proprietary battery bikes, are you listening?). Disposable batteries are going to remain disposable in foreseeable future. All you can do is to take a good care of it by using proper charging and discharging methods, - and keep it for as long as you can.
Motors and other parts need to be made DURABLE, period. Shanghai factory hit-and-miss quality from the day one becoming a norm today, with accelerated wear due to inferior materials (disguised under a popular slogan of "planned obsolescence") - this is getting old, people. Don't even want to start on off-brand Asian imports sold for under $900 and thrown away after 4 months - 1 year if you get lucky - not worth repairing or not repairable.
I doubt that replacing 10-year old dishwasher with a new and more water-efficient and energy-efficient model makes a positive impact on the planet. 15-20 years break-even - possibly, need to run the numbers. Eventually, the most savings of water, energy and raw materials would be achieved by washing dishes by hand
Ebikes are not cheap. At $2,000 (and even at $1,500) I would want it to last at least 10 years. Don't have a print press in a closet, sorry.
Battery can be replaced or refilled once during that period, and it should be standardized and easily available everywhere (proprietary battery bikes, are you listening?). Disposable batteries are going to remain disposable in foreseeable future. All you can do is to take a good care of it by using proper charging and discharging methods, - and keep it for as long as you can.
Motors and other parts need to be made DURABLE, period. Shanghai factory hit-and-miss quality from the day one becoming a norm today, with accelerated wear due to inferior materials (disguised under a popular slogan of "planned obsolescence") - this is getting old, people. Don't even want to start on off-brand Asian imports sold for under $900 and thrown away after 4 months - 1 year if you get lucky - not worth repairing or not repairable.
I doubt that replacing 10-year old dishwasher with a new and more water-efficient and energy-efficient model makes a positive impact on the planet. 15-20 years break-even - possibly, need to run the numbers. Eventually, the most savings of water, energy and raw materials would be achieved by washing dishes by hand
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indianajo
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I don't worry about e-bikes. The scrap guy with the pickup truck will pick up the frame wheels etc and the scrap yard will pay $300 a ton for steel. I hope HD will continue to take the lithium batteries, but I'm suspecting that a tiny entry hatch will soon be installed.
I'm annoyed about autos. 12 v sensors and computers with brass connections don't work past 10 years, the dreaded "check engine light" disease. I would drive maybe 2000 miles a year, so a new car would have 20000 miles on it when it became useless. The Army uses 48 v sensors or gold plate pins on combat vehicles.
My $189 power wheel kit just got wobbly wheel disease, so I got maybe 800 miles out of it? Mostly unpowered. On to Luna, they've got a 12t MAC geared hub listed that will fit with a 7 spd freewheel in a 130 mm dropout now. Didn't have it last time I looked there. I tried last year to buy the $2000 geared hub from the swiss wheelchair motor company; none of their 3 "US distributors" would even answer my e-mail.
I'm annoyed about autos. 12 v sensors and computers with brass connections don't work past 10 years, the dreaded "check engine light" disease. I would drive maybe 2000 miles a year, so a new car would have 20000 miles on it when it became useless. The Army uses 48 v sensors or gold plate pins on combat vehicles.
My $189 power wheel kit just got wobbly wheel disease, so I got maybe 800 miles out of it? Mostly unpowered. On to Luna, they've got a 12t MAC geared hub listed that will fit with a 7 spd freewheel in a 130 mm dropout now. Didn't have it last time I looked there. I tried last year to buy the $2000 geared hub from the swiss wheelchair motor company; none of their 3 "US distributors" would even answer my e-mail.
tomjasz
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Build a kit bike with MAC, MXUS, LEAF, eZee, and a few other motors with battery packs that lack proprietary communication systems... Or generate enough of a cash flow to pay the crazy toll major bike brands and OEM builders are charging. So many of the “rules” spouted, like front drives are bad, keep overpriced builds in the forefront. Sustainable quality motors controllers and battery packs are $1100-$1500.
rich c
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I'm hauling my scrap steel your way. $150 a ton here in Peoria.
My Bali 350 has been running since 2010 ! ?
ebikemom
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WOWZA! How many miles do you have on it? Same battery??
Yep, Same battery ... But it Does need to be repacked with new cells .
tomjasz
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Maybe here, but nearly every other forum is dominated by DYI.
tomjasz
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I think you vastly underestimate the kit market. The gasser kits remain a niche, but eBike kit sales are vibrant and growing. Having sold for and done support for the largest, and now one of the smaller resellers, the volume is quite large. Leading companies in development of eBike technology continue to sell kits exclusively. (ebikes.ca) LONG before any shops had eBikes thousands of kits were sold. But what does it really matter? It's really a silly argument... Either way we get our kicks. Ride it like you stole it!!
Off road all day
Active Member
Totally agree, i was thinking of making a vid, i pull up to a gas pump pull the nozzle out and look for a place to put it in, shrug my shoulders, hop on and drive away
As far as manufactures specs go, your right, PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE.
I have tried here to save a buck for people, i know that most people here can't weld a bike together, i didn't think i could but frankenbike is finally the way i want it. It's not pretty but does what i need.
Still after a year of electric and a year of peddling still on the road, my only issue is the peddles, the right one is screwed but is not your standard size, the mount on the peddle arm is smaller than the standard. Any help
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Maybe you got a lemon. My Bosch dishwasher going on 21 years and still works and cleans good as new (never had to service or replace any parts). My front load washer is a 19 year old Kenmore HE3. Sears replaced the pump under warranty that went out within the first 2 years and been running great ever since for 17 years with no service or any other replacement parts. We do use soft water throughout the house since day one if that makes any difference.
On the other hand, maybe 20 years ago things were manufactured better from EVERYONE. Even American made products now suck. I bought 6 months ago a US made aluminum oven tray that twisted like hell from the heat. I've been using a similar one from China for the last 10 years and never had that problem. Both at the same oven temperature. So go figure...
Got somewhere between 11-15 miles in today on my 9 year old Bali 350 . Couldn't tell exactly because my bike computer batteries crapped out on me. My Bali only has a battery meter instead of a Display. Got home and buzzed my parking lot about 10 times to bring the battery down! Neighbors were confused lol ! As old as the 36volt/10ah is I'm a little surprised it still lasts that long !
Chris Nolte
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@Mike’s E-Bikes I don’t know what your thing is about Bosch, but you seem to bash them at every opportunity. It’s no secret that I’m a big fan of Bosch and we’ve been working with them since they came to the US in 2014. In my opinion, it’s one of the best things that have happened to the US Ebike industry. I don’t think your constant bashing serves you well. I know many brands that use Bosch might not work with your unorthodox shop, or you might have some other reasoning, but maybe you should consider another way of promoting your agenda.
Relating to the original topic, there are few brands that have plans to support their products long term. I’ve brought it up to most product managers I meet and it’s generally not a top priority. Last year I spoke on a panel at the Ebike Summit at Shimano’s HQ and I used this opportunity to stress this point (for those that want to listen). There isn’t a requirement for them to do this at the moment, but it would be nice if there was. I think it’s often implied, but there has been little follow through in the industry. It’s not always without trying though. One thing to consider is whether you would bet this brand and the brands which make components which are needed for it to function will be around years from now.
I’m sure bike brands that selected Goswiss, Bloks or Bionx components to build their bikes with weren’t considering they might have closed up shop while they were still working together. But they did and the people who own bikes that use their components are now in a tough position if something was to go wrong. It’s not like tire or a chain where you have many options, these are highly proprietary parts.
As a retailer having seen many Ebike brands exit the industry over the past 8 years, I’ve been in the space and what happens when they leave is not pretty. I feel it’s in part my responsibility to protect my customers from such pitfalls of the industry. As such, I bet pretty heavily on Bosch. They are the largest publicly held company in the world and they play the long game. They’re not beholden to their investors interpretation of their most recent P & L.
Someone I really respect in business who has been involved in the HVAC industry was telling me about the early days of air conditioners. There were initially about 30 companies and now there are 8. Which 25% of the brands are going to remain in the Ebike business? This is something I think about regularly and I doubt many consumers even consider it, unfortunately.
There are other details which are interesting and to me, and which I see are becoming the gold standard for an Ebike product, or at least I hope so. Bosch makes all of their products backwards compatible unless it’s physically not possible, so the 500Wh battery will work with the older 400Wh bikes, Purion, Intuvia and Kiox are all interchangeable although the Kiox isn’t currently available on the aftermarket. Bosch has made a commitment (taking from the automotive industry) that they will continue to support their products for at least seven years after production stops. This is a really big deal. Think about the market share they have, they’re not leaving bike brands and their customers without support.
I’m not going to throw other brands under the bus due to their poor strategy here, but I will be happy to discuss offline with anyone who cares to inquire. It’s a major exploitation in the Ebike industry and I hope there is a law in the future to resolve this. Shops and brands might have their reputation bruised, but the consumer is the one who loses in the end.
Relating to the original topic, there are few brands that have plans to support their products long term. I’ve brought it up to most product managers I meet and it’s generally not a top priority. Last year I spoke on a panel at the Ebike Summit at Shimano’s HQ and I used this opportunity to stress this point (for those that want to listen). There isn’t a requirement for them to do this at the moment, but it would be nice if there was. I think it’s often implied, but there has been little follow through in the industry. It’s not always without trying though. One thing to consider is whether you would bet this brand and the brands which make components which are needed for it to function will be around years from now.
I’m sure bike brands that selected Goswiss, Bloks or Bionx components to build their bikes with weren’t considering they might have closed up shop while they were still working together. But they did and the people who own bikes that use their components are now in a tough position if something was to go wrong. It’s not like tire or a chain where you have many options, these are highly proprietary parts.
As a retailer having seen many Ebike brands exit the industry over the past 8 years, I’ve been in the space and what happens when they leave is not pretty. I feel it’s in part my responsibility to protect my customers from such pitfalls of the industry. As such, I bet pretty heavily on Bosch. They are the largest publicly held company in the world and they play the long game. They’re not beholden to their investors interpretation of their most recent P & L.
Someone I really respect in business who has been involved in the HVAC industry was telling me about the early days of air conditioners. There were initially about 30 companies and now there are 8. Which 25% of the brands are going to remain in the Ebike business? This is something I think about regularly and I doubt many consumers even consider it, unfortunately.
There are other details which are interesting and to me, and which I see are becoming the gold standard for an Ebike product, or at least I hope so. Bosch makes all of their products backwards compatible unless it’s physically not possible, so the 500Wh battery will work with the older 400Wh bikes, Purion, Intuvia and Kiox are all interchangeable although the Kiox isn’t currently available on the aftermarket. Bosch has made a commitment (taking from the automotive industry) that they will continue to support their products for at least seven years after production stops. This is a really big deal. Think about the market share they have, they’re not leaving bike brands and their customers without support.
I’m not going to throw other brands under the bus due to their poor strategy here, but I will be happy to discuss offline with anyone who cares to inquire. It’s a major exploitation in the Ebike industry and I hope there is a law in the future to resolve this. Shops and brands might have their reputation bruised, but the consumer is the one who loses in the end.
tomjasz
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Sadly my Bosch experience mirrors Mikes. Second only to Asko.
I’m curious about their mid drives but they’re out of my budget, and the same can be said for many customers. I won’t waste time bashing them as I’m just not willing to work hard enough to support their products.
Like a majority of the market, from everything I could find, 5 years ago, I choose to kit build and have built on frames that are still mostly unavailable as eBikes in the market. Excepting an Electra. Which, BTW, I suggested was the best choice for a neice with sufficient disposable income to support. Along with zero interest on her mates part to maintain a kit build. He did a Townie conversion with eBikes.ca parts and has a far superior and more easily maintained bike. No problem replacing a battery, controller, or finding repair parts.
I’ve noticed that proper fit has taken a back seat with eBikes. 6 years ago I needed to travel 300 miles to even see a proper eBike. But easily found kit builders. And discovered I could convert and maintain the perfect frame.
As always each to their own. For me, as much as I’ve ridden over the last 50 years I’d have limited my fun and experience depending on an LBS for every fix.
That said, I outspent the cost of a new eBike on my newest build. But I know every inch of it.
I’m curious about their mid drives but they’re out of my budget, and the same can be said for many customers. I won’t waste time bashing them as I’m just not willing to work hard enough to support their products.
Like a majority of the market, from everything I could find, 5 years ago, I choose to kit build and have built on frames that are still mostly unavailable as eBikes in the market. Excepting an Electra. Which, BTW, I suggested was the best choice for a neice with sufficient disposable income to support. Along with zero interest on her mates part to maintain a kit build. He did a Townie conversion with eBikes.ca parts and has a far superior and more easily maintained bike. No problem replacing a battery, controller, or finding repair parts.
I’ve noticed that proper fit has taken a back seat with eBikes. 6 years ago I needed to travel 300 miles to even see a proper eBike. But easily found kit builders. And discovered I could convert and maintain the perfect frame.
As always each to their own. For me, as much as I’ve ridden over the last 50 years I’d have limited my fun and experience depending on an LBS for every fix.
That said, I outspent the cost of a new eBike on my newest build. But I know every inch of it.
The ??merit?? bean counters at most companies keep them from considering standardization on things like batteries because they don't want to compete on just the merits of the ebike and future battery sales are a good consumable profit maker. I do understand that the form factor is not standard but produce the shells such that batteries can be easily remanufactured. Most people will still return to the bike OEM for future batteries so long as not hugely over-priced.
I worked at HP for 8 years and multiple CEO's would always commit to moving away from relying so much on toner and ink for profits but every year they did more to make sure the cartridges were proprietary and not-refillable (chips with lock-out counters are the latest method).
I believe in the free market system but in many cases decisions are made that are not good for consumers or the world. We could put the bean counters on a desolated island someplace and maybe get things going in the right direction on ebikes.
tomjasz
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Aw, there so many cool electric motors that don't stink. But I understand the draw, kinda...I'm also building a Gasser.
It will likely take me 3 years to get through a tank of gas. I'm a big fan of electrics. My few handfuls of 1/4 mile passes a year isn't going to doing much.
My electric bike will get me around in the pits.
