Technically speaking A bat. Capacity is 40% less then advertised

[Ebiker01]

The thread title is not exactly what i wanted but in absence of better title ideas, that one remains for now.
Description:
Given a bat. Capacity of day 600WH, we know that, for the healthy of the bat. cells and our budget of course, we should use the battery only in between the bottom 20% and the top 20%.
Again this thread debate is strictly only refering to the thinking that takes into account this imp. Detail: that as long as me or you are cautios to use the bat. In between those parameters. Given that, it results that for a 600WH bat. we have a usefull capacity of 600-240(the bottom and the top 20%) =360WH.
Charge it above 80% results in less longevity, using it while is less then 20% again not good for the cells and our budget unless spending 7-800$ +|- 30% ( my bat. Is 750$, yours may be 1k or 600$) for a new battery is a discretionary expense.
After realizing this conclusion, in my case , i am aware i either need to :
A) buy and carry a spare bat;
B) build/get other bike with at least 1kwh capacity

Waiting for other members insightfull minds to present their response/ elaborate on this thought.

 

[Feliz]

I got the WH I paid for with my bike, it's up to me if I use them all or not.

 

[MarkF]

I think to many people worry about the 20 80 rule. Lipos start degrading the moment there made. They have a good 4 to 6 years of use before the performance falls off. At that point, the power and run time will be reduced. So what's the point of saving your battery when they degrade anyways whether you use them or not. I think for someone who uses his bike everyday and charges his battery once or twice a day might do well to follow a more strict charging regiment, but for those who use there bike for pleasure and charge 2 or 3 times a week, or less should just enjoy their bike and stop worrying about things you can't change. I own a lipo business and I know better than most, how lipos work. I charge 100% evertime and ride my bike. I never ride far enough to run my battery down all the way but I wouldn't worry about it if I did. The best thing you can do for your battery is to keep it in the house, out of heat and cold. And don't leave it at 100% charge or 90% discharged for more than a week or two. Batteries are just like tires, they wear down and don't last forever. But planning on them lasting 10 years is not something that is going to work out that well so why worry about it now.

Feliz
Good post

 

[AHicks]

Tend to agree with the "just ride it" philosophy for most folks. If you want to baby it going with the 80/20 plan trying to get the last few percent of potential battery life out of it, go for it. I'm sure there's a lot of merit in the 80/20 plan if you want to follow that.

Or maybe, just understand the logic behind the 80/20 plan and use it when handy. I think that pretty much sums up my own usage. -Al

 

[Volt_Ampere]

Having a bigger battery is good for having it last longer because you are much less likely to run it down too far. This is very hard on the battery - much more than charging to 100%. I make sure I never go below 20% before charging. I do charge to 100% every few charge cycles to allow the BMS to balance the pack. My charger can shut off at 80 or 90% but it doesn't allow for balancing then. It doesn't lower the final voltage so it only does CC charging and then cuts off at 80% or 90% voltage. Not ideal but that's how it works.

 

[SirJonathan]

I've stated this before here but will add it to this thread.

I have owned a Tesla since 2012. It was one of the very early models (under VIN 5000). Tesla has a very sophisticated BMS but my 2012 compared to today's Tesla BMS and battery chemistry is quite different.

I've charged it in my garage for the past 6 years. I charge to 90% when I need it. 100% if I have a long trip. Sometimes it gets low. Very low. Sometimes I Supercharge it on road trips to 100% at high charge rates.

I literally have not once thought about "how can I preserve this battery". The Tesla forums have thousands of threads, ideas, timing sequences, charts, battery degradation models, etc. You could lose your mind reading through them and trying to figure out what's best for the battery longevity.

I'm sitting at 98.5% of my original battery capacity. That's over 6 years. Over 60,000 miles. Without ever considering how, when or where to charge.

Very recently Elon Musk tweeted "Go ahead and charge to 100%. Or let the battery get low. Then charge again. Our modeling doesn't really show any massive degradation due to charging practices."

I'm paraphrasing as there were a series of several Tweets that he released. Bottom line is that he was correct according to my results. Please note: Sample quantity of ONE.

I'm going to purchase an eBike here in the next week and I won't spend 5 minutes worrying about how to charge it. I'm just going to enjoy it.

 

[Alex M]

...for a 600WH bat. we have a usefull capacity of 600-240(the bottom and the top 20%) =360WH.

This has been talked about a few times. Yes, Li batteries last longer if run 20-80%. Important for those on a budget. Many people consider proper battery maintenance to be more hassle than the expense of a new battery, I won't comment on this.

Besides, those max 80% is a simplified picture. Sitting more than 60% charged for more than a month will affect it, a few days will barely make a difference, so if you ride almost every day - go ahead and charge 95-99%. Some (most?) batteries won't balance cells unless you charge it to at least 90%, this is another reason to charge it higher than 80%.

Running it below 20% should still be avoided.

Also, as noted, they all die with time. Chemical deterioration begins from the day it was made, you can't stop it, you can only slow it down. Use, charge and store it below 85F ambient if possible. If you live in Tx or Az then at least bring it inside for charging in summer. Hot temperatures seem to kill it faster than anything else.

I would not compare e-car battery like Tesla to e-bike battery. More sophisticated BMS and cooling system in Tesla.

 

[Solom01]

Yes comparing it to electric cars is not a good idea, but if you must think about the early Nissan LEAF. They don't have sophisticated cooling systems and the early models sold in hot climates such as Arizona resulted in battery degradation of over 10% a year and ended up with a class action lawsuit, lots of warranty claims on the battery and a lot of unhappy customers.

 

[Ebiker01]

This has been talked about a few times. Yes, Li batteries last longer if run 20-80%. Important for those on a budget. Many people consider proper battery maintenance to be more hassle than the expense of a new battery, I won't comment on this.

Besides, those max 80% is a simplified picture. Sitting more than 60% charged for more than a month will affect it, a few days will barely make a difference, so if you ride almost every day - go ahead and charge 95-99%. Some (most?) batteries won't balance cells unless you charge it to at least 90%, this is another reason to charge it higher than 80%.

Running it below 20% should still be avoided.

Also, as noted, they all die with time. Chemical deterioration begins from the day it was made, you can't stop it, you can only slow it down. Use, charge and store it below 85F ambient if possible. If you live in Tx or Az then at least bring it inside for charging in summer. Hot temperatures seem to kill it faster than anything else.

I would not compare e-car battery like Tesla to e-bike battery. More sophisticated BMS and cooling system in Tesla.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Yes, that is very poorly worded heading, for if vendors of ebikes or batteries sold that way , you'd have a complete consumer mutiny. Refer to SirJonathon's post, and like Elon says, stop worrying about it. If you ever actually reach the end of the useful life of the battery, then you should be proud of yourself for having ridden that many miles. And if it happens more quickly, then even prouder.

 

[Ebiker01]

On mine i have the newer Lg 21700 cells same as the ones in Tesla, the Bms and cooling i do not know how it compares. Is Easy motion/Bh , i heard is a good battery, made by same factory who does the Stromer batteries.
I’ve made a custom neoprene 5mm cover b/c here in Ny/Nj is very cold esp. when there is wind chill too. It gets as cold as -15/-20 Celsius sometimes in jan./feb. Months.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

There is a reason why Tesla offers 8 years, 100,000 miles warranty on their battery pack.

Name one E-Bike manufacturer who is willing to offer 5 year warranty on the battery!!

Maximum is Yamaha = 3 years.

If you are planning on riding 20,000 miles on a single battery, it's not going to happen with fully charging it everyday.

Many ebike owners are recreational riders (1000 miles a year or less). For them, it's not going to matter and they don't need more than 400whr pack anyway.

Tesla's battery pack is an engineering marvel. Comparing that to ebike batteries is laughable.

 

[SirJonathan]

"There is a reason why Tesla offers 8 years, 100,000 miles warranty on their battery pack. "

You're correct. And the reason is that the battery pack costs $30,000 to replace and when you're trying to be a disrupter in a world that doesn't want your product to interfere with the status quo you need to do something to assuage consumer fears. This warranty accomplished that.

"If you are planning on riding 20,000 miles on a single battery, it's not going to happen with fully charging it everyday."

That's a whole lot of miles. In my glory days of road cycling I could put about 8000 miles a year on my bike. I was literally riding every day and a couple hundred miles on the weekends. If that is a commuter's goal then you may be correct about that statement. If I put on 4000 miles a year I'll be quite pleased and that means in 5 years my batter will be done. Let me clarify "done" - 70% of initial capacity. This means my 70 miles on Eco will now be 50 miles. I think I could eke out another year with that range.

"Many ebike owners are recreational riders (1000 miles a year or less). For them, it's not going to matter and they don't need more than 400whr pack anyway."

Yep. Agreed.

"Tesla's battery pack is an engineering marvel. Comparing that to ebike batteries is laughable."

It sure is. Laughable because one costs $30,000 and one costs $600. You're correct. There really is no comparison and I'm embarrassed for making one. It would be similar to comparing the care of your $60,000 Steinway and your $1200 Kawai Student Model pianos. For heaven's sake just play the darn thing and enjoy it.

 

[JRA]

Tesla 2170 cells are Panasonic and made at the gigafactory and used by Tesla for the Model 3 and the power packs. The LG 2170 cells are primarily licensed to BMZ that in turn makes the packs for BH, Haibike, Specialized. So similar but not the same as Tesla.

 

[SirJonathan]

Tesla 2170 cells are Panasonic and made at the gigafactory and used by Tesla for the Model 3 and the power packs. The LG 2170 cells are primarily licensed to BMZ that in turn makes the packs for BH, Haibike, Specialized. So similar but not the same as Tesla.

There was no Gigafactory when I purchased my car in 2012. You are correct: the new Model 3 uses the 2170 Panasonic cells made in the Gigafactory. I have the old Panasonic 18650 cells. Seem to be holding up just fine.

 

[Ebiker01]

Tesla 2170 cells are Panasonic and made at the gigafactory and used by Tesla for the Model 3 and the power packs. The LG 2170 cells are primarily licensed to BMZ that in turn makes the packs for BH, Haibike, Specialized. So similar but not the same as Tesla.

I remember reading in a well-known forum(electrek.co) that Musk himself has said recently (1-2weeks ago), that they were considering making e bikes. It was a very short statement, i can look it up and paste it here if needed.
Now, a Tesla ebike ...i think that , that would revolutionize the e bike market.
Telsa e bike must haves:
- 2kw battery pack (72v with 30amps ?)
-1Kw hub motor
-the upcoming Bosch ABS system
-under 45lb
- carbon frame
-magura mt4/5 brakes
-belt drive
- rear and front shocks
- BIG display with SYNCH mode( to be able to control car/change settings ) to any of the Tesla car models
- an automated robot hand rack / system that can pick up the bike and put it on the trunk rack/ roof rack (this one is a bit off the rails, but can be done ...)
-some collision warning assistance (from behind ,etc...would be nice to have ? ..see Garmin via
- a Rotlicht taillight/headlight, or the slightly inferior Supernova.
-a sort of autopilot software that Can start the bike/change settings/ remove the battery by voice control commands
-6year transferrable warranty for bike+battery

And with a price less then 10K, 6-7k would be nice, maybe an optional lease payment plan.

 

[SirJonathan]

I remember reading in a well-known forum(electrek.co) that Musk himself has said recently (1-2weeks ago), that they were considering making e bikes. It was a very short statement, i can look it up and paste it here if needed.
Now, a Tesla ebike ...i think that , that would revolutionize the e bike market.
Telsa e bike must haves:
- 2kw battery pack (72v with 30amps ?)
-1Kw hub motor
-the upcoming Bosch ABS system
-under 45lb
- carbon frame
-magura mt4/5 brakes
-belt drive
- rear and front shocks
- BIG display with SYNCH mode( to be able to control car/change settings ) to any of the Tesla car models
- an automated robot hand rack / system that can pick up the bike and put it on the trunk rack/ roof rack (this one is a bit off the rails, but can be done ...)
-some collision warning assistance (from behind ,etc...would be nice to have ? ..see Garmin via
- a Rotlicht taillight/headlight, or the slightly inferior Supernova.
-a sort of autopilot software that Can start the bike/change settings/ remove the battery by voice control commands
-6year transferrable warranty for bike+battery

And with a price less then 10K, 6-7k would be nice, maybe an optional lease payment plan.

I follow Tesla relatively closely. I think his comment was taken out of proportion. It was more like a stream-of-concious rambling where somebody asked him what else Tesla could make that is electric and he said something along the lines of "oh yeah, an electric bicycle. I think it would be cool to make an electric bicycle" and that was about it.

I kind of dig your stats, though!

 

[Feliz]

I remember reading in a well-known forum(electrek.co) that Musk himself has said recently (1-2weeks ago), that they were considering making e bikes. It was a very short statement, i can look it up and paste it here if needed.
Now, a Tesla ebike ...i think that , that would revolutionize the e bike market.
Telsa e bike must haves:
- 2kw battery pack (72v with 30amps ?)
-1Kw hub motor
-the upcoming Bosch ABS system
-under 45lb
- carbon frame
-magura mt4/5 brakes
-belt drive
- rear and front shocks
- BIG display with SYNCH mode( to be able to control car/change settings ) to any of the Tesla car models
- an automated robot hand rack / system that can pick up the bike and put it on the trunk rack/ roof rack (this one is a bit off the rails, but can be done ...)
-some collision warning assistance (from behind ,etc...would be nice to have ? ..see Garmin via
- a Rotlicht taillight/headlight, or the slightly inferior Supernova.
-a sort of autopilot software that Can start the bike/change settings/ remove the battery by voice control commands
-6year transferrable warranty for bike+battery

And with a price less then 10K, 6-7k would be nice, maybe an optional lease payment plan.

I'll take two, just substitute Shimano for the Magura brakes which suck.

 

[JRA]

The point I was going for is that there are no ebikes made with the same 2170 cells Tesla uses.

However 2170 cells made by Sony, Samsung, LG and others will be taking over the eBike market within the next few years as more manufacturers adopt them.

 

[6zfshdb]

Does it really matter what the actual battery capacity is? As long as the advertised numbers are relative and I can go twice as far with a 1000W battery than I can with a 500W, I don't much care about real measured capacity.