Statement Regarding Potential CPSC Ebike Law Preemption of 3-class Legislation

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

The 2002 federal definition of a LSEB as a bike was just fine. It was not confusing and allowed up to 20mph motor alone (so NHTSA as ok with an LSEB not being considered a motor vehicle and they were OK with human power adding a bit more speed which is what does allow ebikes to be compelling urban mobility). Under that 20mph motor alone umbrella electric scooters, hoover boards, and skateboards can also be consumer products allowed where bikes are allowed. So simple and elegant.

A 49cc ICE ?moped?will easily surpass 20mph and even 30mph (I believe some 49cc 2-stroke motors can generate upwards of 8hp). Putting pedals on them really should not provide a legit claim to be a bike. I do agree there are a lot of EVs coming that will be in this catagory but they should not be considered LSEBs or motorcycles. The new Sonders Metacycle is a good example a sub-motorcycle class that will be great for urban mobility but they do not belong on highways or interstates. Given that vast array of opinions at the state level it would be great if NHTSA would just define these EVs and essentially dictate that the states ONLY have the rights to establish the "use" laws just like they should be limited to for LSEBS (we simply do not want each state to define a different product such that manufacturers have to comply with ridiculous minor differences like NY creating a Class 3 ebike with throttle-assist to 25mph for no reason). I do agree that in this class both EVs and ICEs need to be "use" acceptable and have less regulatory burden vs a motorcycle. For example I think California has a long term registration for these at less than $20 for many years and Colorado has a $5.85/yr registration (these all these vehicles to be registered via the VIN system but low cost burden encourages their use when a LSEB is not adequate).

Motorcycles - again just higher power than the ?moped/class? just outlined but higher performance and regulated just as motorcycles are now.

I want LSEBs to remain with CPSC and get rid of 3-class legislation as it has no merit - trail managers will just have to accept throttles and DMV and insurance companies will never get their arms around speed pedelecs like they did in Europe (totally ruining the savings and congestion reduction potential of speed pedelecs).

49cc is equivalent to 1 HP (Virtually equivalent to 1BHP, brake horse power)...as is 750W. In fact this is where the 750W number came from originally. Scooters can be ridden legally on public streets but have even more stringent speed restrictions in many states. That is why there is a huge market for "souping up" these scooters. In CT, if it goes more than 30 mph or is more than 49cc it needs to be registered and insured and needs turn signals and brake lights...and the rider needs a motorcycle endorsement. this according to one source...
From tht CT DMV website
You must register the following:

Motorcycles: Any two-or three-wheeled motor vehicle (that does not have a driver’s seat that is enclosed or designed to be enclosed) that produces more than 2 brake horsepower must be registered as a motorcycle.

The more you search the more inconsistencies you find. 2 BHP is roughly equivalent to 1500W...so what is it? Anything more than 49cc (1HP or 750W) requires registration or is it 2 BHP

Anyway, that is why I see these motor driven cycles as equivalent to LSEB and should be considered one in the same (1 or 2 classes up to 30mph). There is no clear definition of what is between this class(es) and a full on motorcycle. This is where there is tremendous potential to create a class of light motorbike with more capability than LSEB and less restriction than motorcycles. The light motorbikes are coming hell or high water. It just would be nice to know what the laws will be and who will govern this class (I propose FHTSA as these bikes should have more motorcycle like features such as full lighting---brake lights and turn signals). They should have VINs so that they can be registered in the states that require it. But as a manufacturer it is a big risk to design and produce something that can become something "unsellable" at the stroke of a pen. Right now bike companies are selling bikes in this non structured class as class 2 ebikes because they put pedals on them and limit the W to 750 (but easily defeatable). This is the game.

This is another reason Wattage is irrelavant. I can put a 750W motor in a bike and give it more juice to peak the power to 2000-3000W. And as others have already pointed out you could put any label you want on a motor and any class label you want on a bike. If safety of the riders and surrounding people were the real concern you would be more concerned about the bikes maximum attainable speed and curb weight...(having said that, the speed could also be limited and easily defeatable)

 

[ngl]

But as a manufacturer it is a big risk to design and produce something that can become something "unsellable" at the stroke of a pen. Right now bike companies are selling bikes in this non structured class as class 2 ebikes because they put pedals on them and limit the W to 750 (but easily defeatable). This is the game.

Couldn't you just sell it into the normal dirt bike ORV market that already exists for this size/power and add a MCO/title and the motorcycle VIN, lights and safety features to make it a "mini dual sport" so the owners could register it in any state right now if they wanted to? MCO and VIN costs almost nothing for a manufacturer to issue, DOT grade stuff that would fit them are cheap and ubiquitous, you can sell your product right now in all 50 states legally, and anyone who wants to ride it on the road can do that too under current laws if they register, and if you then (or some larger company) lobbies for a subclass with lower licensure restrictions, your products are already ready and out there.

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

Wouldn't a federal NHTSA definition just be a carbon copy of the motorcycle regs but just add a hp limit to the definition, like 1-3hp? What mandatory safety features would be worth leaving off to save a few bucks on a smaller engine motorcycle or scooter? If a manufacturer isn't driving the legislation for profit to open up some new and profitable segment, I dont' see any likely push behind the idea. if it's 1-3hp only to cover this gap, who is the market? Bicycles already do the speed limit in 25mph zones, and the next zone is usually 35 mph, which is covered by the 49/50cc segment. A special class for the rare 30mph zone?

Close...but I think you need to expand the speed (and/or HP) a bit. There is already LSEB up to 28 mph. The 49cc is about 3HP (49cc = 3 hp = 2250W). I think there should be a light motorbike class from that covers up to 40-50 mph range (751W - 8KW or 1HP - 3.5 HP, for example). The reason is for mass adoption of 2 or 3 wheeled EV's without full motorcycle endorsement. Basically throw all 2 and 3 wheeled motor driven vehicles in between high end of LSEB class and motorcycle class into this class and have fewer restrictions. As I already mentioned, these EV's are coming. Might as well be prepared.

 

[jabberwocky]

C'mon seriously...you seem to be claiming all urban streets are under the jurisdiction of the park system. That is simply false!

I specifically said off street stuff, meaning everything that isn't directly part of a street.

Here is a list of the most popular MUPs in the DC region:

The Visitor's Biking Guide to Washington DC

In order:
W&OD (NOVA Parks)
Custis Trail (VDOT)
Capital Crescent Trail (National Park Service)
Mt Vernon Trail (National Park Service)
C&O Towpath (National Park Service)
Rock Creek Park Trails (National Park Service)
Sligo Creek Trail (Montgomery Parks)
Anacostia Branch Trail system (Varies, mostly Montgomery Parks and Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission)
Bethesda Trolley Trail (Montgomery County DOT)

This is by no means comprehensive, but every one of these is an important paved commuter link for pedestrians and bikes, and you'll notice that almost all of them fall under some sort of park department (I'll note that even the ones like the Custis, which is ostensibly run by VDOT, is largely managed by Arlington County because VDOT doesn't really have expertise in non-road infrastructure and is happy to let someone else take lead on management).

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

Couldn't you just sell it into the normal dirt bike ORV market that already exists for this size/power and add a MCO/title and the motorcycle VIN, lights and safety features to make it a "mini dual sport" so the owners could register it in any state right now if they wanted to? MCO and VIN costs almost nothing for a manufacturer to issue, DOT grade stuff that would fit them are cheap and ubiquitous, you can sell your product right now in all 50 states legally, and anyone who wants to ride it on the road can do that too under current laws if they register, and if you then (or some larger company) lobbies for a subclass with lower licensure restrictions, your products are already ready and out there.

Yes, this is a possible path. The bikes I sell now are "not intended for use on public streets" and are not sold as such. But not all new models envisioned are ORV looking and may appear intended primarily for street use (so what, I guess). There is always the concern that this "open door" will close abruptly. But having said that, if there is one thing that is certain besides death and taxes, it is that our government does not do anything quickly.

 

[Ken M]

49cc is equivalent to 1 HP (Virtually equivalent to 1BHP, brake horse power)...as is 750W. In fact this is where the 750W number came from originally. Scooters can be ridden legally on public streets but have even more stringent speed restrictions in many states. That is why there is a huge market for "souping up" these scooters. In CT, if it goes more than 30 mph or is more than 49cc it needs to be registered and insured and needs turn signals and brake lights...and the rider needs a motorcycle endorsement. this according to one source...
From tht CT DMV website
You must register the following:

Motorcycles: Any two-or three-wheeled motor vehicle (that does not have a driver’s seat that is enclosed or designed to be enclosed) that produces more than 2 brake horsepower must be registered as a motorcycle.

The more you search the more inconsistencies you find. 2 BHP is roughly equivalent to 1500W...so what is it? Anything more than 49cc (1HP or 750W) requires registration or is it 2 BHP

Anyway, that is why I see these motor driven cycles as equivalent to LSEB and should be considered one in the same (1 or 2 classes up to 30mph). There is no clear definition of what is between this class(es) and a full on motorcycle. This is where there is tremendous potential to create a class of light motorbike with more capability than LSEB and less restriction than motorcycles. The light motorbikes are coming hell or high water. It just would be nice to know what the laws will be and who will govern this class (I propose FHTSA as these bikes should have more motorcycle like features such as full lighting---brake lights and turn signals). They should have VINs so that they can be registered in the states that require it. But as a manufacturer it is a big risk to design and produce something that can become something "unsellable" at the stroke of a pen. Right now bike companies are selling bikes in this non structured class as class 2 ebikes because they put pedals on them and limit the W to 750 (but easily defeatable). This is the game.

This is another reason Wattage is irrelavant. I can put a 750W motor in a bike and give it more juice to peak the power to 2000-3000W. And as others have already pointed out you could put any label you want on a motor and any class label you want on a bike. If safety of the riders and surrounding people were the real concern you would be more concerned about the bikes maximum attainable speed and curb weight...(having said that, the speed could also be limited and easily defeatable)

The 50cc land speed setting modified Aprillia RS50 motor makes 27hp. Your specs that a 49cc motor is same as 750W / 1hp ebike are way off.

I understand electric motor rating provides higher peak values, but the federal specification limits actual dynamic power above 20mph to only what can sustain 170lb rider on level surface (constants). The higher peak power below 20mph makes sense for cargo and utility ebikes which will be constrained pretty much to 20mph top assist speeds.

 

[baxterblack]

The 50cc land speed setting modified Aprillia RS50 motor makes 27hp. Your specs that a 49cc motor is same as 750W / 1hp ebike are way off.

I understand electric motor rating provides higher peak values, but the federal specification limits actual dynamic power above 20mph to only what can sustain 170lb rider on level surface (constants). The higher peak power below 20mph makes sense for cargo and utility ebikes which will be constrained pretty much to 20mph top assist speeds.

^^^^ Exactly,

 

[J.R.]

These motorcycles have nothing to do with ebikes.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.facebook.com/HightailGreg/videos/first-three-bikes-ready-for-deomnstration/1133548653713797/&ved=2ahUKEwj30f724_vvAhUEF1kFHVh-A3gQo7QBMAB6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw2gri_XqB9uvKBxTBP0B43S

I'd love to own one, it would be a blast. Amazing looking bikes. And there's a lot of land in Pennsylvania where they can be ridden legally.

These are the examples we have to explain when we want to be included in cycling infrastructure.

The state regs are clear:

Electric Bike (E-bike) Use
Class 1 E-bikes are permitted on approved mountain bike trails and roads, provided they meet all the following standards:

1. Electric motor less than 750 watts
2. Fully functional pedals
3. Weight not exceeding 75 lbs.
4. Maximum speed less than 20 mph
5. Does not have capacity to be completely self-propelled (must be pedaled to engage electric motor)

Class 2 and 3 E-bikes are not permitted on approved mountain bike trails and roads in state forests.

The weight alone excludes them. The county regs for county land does extend to 100 pounds. That would still exclude them. It's just a different argument that I'd support in the right place, but they can't be included with ebikes. The fight would be over before it started.

I do understand the difficulty and expense making these legal. I'd support regulatory changes. This is way out of the scope of ebikes though.

 

[Ken M]

I specifically said off street stuff, meaning everything that isn't directly part of a street.

Here is a list of the most popular MUPs in the DC region:

The Visitor's Biking Guide to Washington DC

In order:
W&OD (NOVA Parks)
Custis Trail (VDOT)
Capital Crescent Trail (National Park Service)
Mt Vernon Trail (National Park Service)
C&O Towpath (National Park Service)
Rock Creek Park Trails (National Park Service)
Sligo Creek Trail (Montgomery Parks)
Anacostia Branch Trail system (Varies, mostly Montgomery Parks and Maryland-National Capital Park and Planning Commission)
Bethesda Trolley Trail (Montgomery County DOT)

This is by no means comprehensive, but every one of these is an important paved commuter link for pedestrians and bikes, and you'll notice that almost all of them fall under some sort of park department (I'll note that even the ones like the Custis, which is ostensibly run by VDOT, is largely managed by Arlington County because VDOT doesn't really have expertise in non-road infrastructure and is happy to let someone else take lead on management).

my mistake on the "off street" mention.

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

These motorcycles have nothing to do with ebikes.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.facebook.com/HightailGreg/videos/first-three-bikes-ready-for-deomnstration/1133548653713797/&ved=2ahUKEwj30f724_vvAhUEF1kFHVh-A3gQo7QBMAB6BAgAEAE&usg=AOvVaw2gri_XqB9uvKBxTBP0B43S

View attachment 84658

I'd love to own one, it would be a blast. Amazing looking bikes. And there's a lot of land in Pennsylvania where they can be ridden legally.

These are the examples we have to explain when we want to be included in cycling infrastructure.

The state regs are clear:

Electric Bike (E-bike) Use
Class 1 E-bikes are permitted on approved mountain bike trails and roads, provided they meet all the following standards:

1. Electric motor less than 750 watts
2. Fully functional pedals
3. Weight not exceeding 75 lbs.
4. Maximum speed less than 20 mph
5. Does not have capacity to be completely self-propelled (must be pedaled to engage electric motor)

Class 2 and 3 E-bikes are not permitted on approved mountain bike trails and roads in state forests.

The weight alone excludes them. The county regs for county land does extend to 100 pounds. That would still exclude them. It's just a different argument that I'd support in the right place, but they can't be included with ebikes. The fight would be over before it started.

I do understand the difficulty and expense making these legal. I'd support regulatory changes. This is way out of the scope of ebikes though.

I never said the bikes I sell were LSEB's...and I don't sell them as such. They are sold as "not intended for use on public roads". I don't advocate these be allowed on federal land trails for bike use (OK for motor vehicle use trails, though). As an importer and manufacturer, I need clearly defined classes from a product development standpoint, especially in the "wild west" category ABOVE 750W and BELOW a motorcycle. This is a merky mess right now. I brought up the "big picture" because I'm a big picture guy. I have always thought the 3 class system looked liked it was derived by committee...make everyone happy inside the room, screw everyone else outside the room. I still think ALL motorized bikes should be classified together from a federal standpoint and that a class should exist that is permissable on the bike trails on our federal lands. I still think the 3 classes are 1 or 2 classes in reality.
Furthermore, I question the legality of selling bikes as class 2 because they have a switch to limit the speed or power. Where does it say this is legal? All of the bikes I sell have speed limiter switches to limit the top speed to 20 mph. I don't pretend to think this makes them class 2 ebikes like some other companies. If the laws allowed for a method to switch to class 1 mode or even class 2 that would be a great bike to develop, assuming it was truly class one 750W max, pedal assist, 20mph cut off. I don't ever see this happening but I do see some companies currently lying to themselves and to their customers.

 

[Ken M]

I never said the bikes I sell were LSEB's...and I don't sell them as such. They are sold as "not intended for use on public roads". I don't advocate these be allowed on federal land trails for bike use (OK for motor vehicle use trails, though). As an importer and manufacturer, I need clearly defined classes from a product development standpoint, especially in the "wild west" category ABOVE 750W and BELOW a motorcycle. This is a merky mess right now. I brought up the "big picture" because I'm a big picture guy. I have always thought the 3 class system looked liked it was derived by committee...make everyone happy inside the room, screw everyone else outside the room. I still think ALL motorized bikes should be classified together from a federal standpoint and that a class should exist that is permissable on the bike trails on our federal lands. I still think the 3 classes are 1 or 2 classes in reality.
Furthermore, I question the legality of selling bikes as class 2 because they have a switch to limit the speed or power. Where does it say this is legal? All of the bikes I sell have speed limiter switches to limit the top speed to 20 mph. I don't pretend to think this makes them class 2 ebikes like some other companies. If the laws allowed for a method to switch to class 1 mode or even class 2 that would be a great bike to develop, assuming it was truly class one 750W max, pedal assist, 20mph cut off. I don't ever see this happening but I do see some companies currently lying to themselves and to their customers.

There are some "multi-mode" ebikes already on the market and more are coming. I believe the new Sonders ebikes will have 3 models. One class 1/2 at 20mph, Class 3 at 28, and offroad to 35mph. It's was inevitable that this would happed given the 3 class legislation is more ambiguous than the federal definition.

I will again just state that I feel the CPSC definition for a LSEB is a good specification for them to be "use" regulated in all 50 states as just a bike. The AG of MIssissippr reviewed the statutes and came to that conclusion but no other AG has publicly stated an opinion. The industry did not need 3-class as the EU bikes could have been imported and sold here as is because they were compliant to the federal definition but for some reason they wanted to push the US to harmonize as closely as possible (the higher power and throttle allowance pretty much made complete harmonization impossible).

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

I don't see any reason why >1hp road motorcylces or scooters would need another class just to avoid a two day safety course or a basic license test requirement. If the other big *49cc scooter manufacturers thought it was a problem, they'd probably have proposed it already. I think Honda, Yamaha, Vespa are probably happy with it, but if you really want a special new class for those, that's who will pay for it if they want it. I think they already sell well enough that they don't care to pay for a new law, though.

Because of the reasons I mentioned. No one wants to go to a 2 or 3 day motorcycle safety course to learn to ride a 250 lb motorcycle so they then can ride there 1000W pedal assist ebike legally (once they register it, course). It's not to avoid the course. You don't go to Skip Barber racing school so you can get a drivers license.

Until yesterday I never heard of "class 4" which I don't believe actually exists anywhere other than as a concept. Trust me, if you were in the business of selling electric bikes over 750W you would know what I'm talking about. Every state has murky, conflicting, unclear definitions and laws regarding "scooters", "mopeds" etc...

Seems to me "LSEB" proponents don't care about anything other than the holy grail of being allowed to ride on federal land trails and bike lanes (and anywhere analog bikes are allowed) and motorcycle proponents couldn't really care less about anything that isn't a motorcycle. To say there is nothing in between is just sticking your head in the sand. This thread interested me but I can see that the shortsightedness that created the 3 class system is too ingrained. This may be the wrong place to talk about anything beyond 750W ebikes...that's the sense I'm getting...but it is also why the laws are so conflicting, because no one cares to solve the bigger puzzle first.

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

There are some "multi-mode" ebikes already on the market and more are coming. I believe the new Sonders ebikes will have 3 models. One class 1/2 at 20mph, Class 3 at 28, and offroad to 35mph. It's was inevitable that this would happed given the 3 class legislation is more ambiguous than the federal definition.

I will again just state that I feel the CPSC definition for a LSEB is a good specification for them to be "use" regulated in all 50 states as just a bike. The AG of MIssissippr reviewed the statutes and came to that conclusion but no other AG has publicly stated an opinion. The industry did not need 3-class as the EU bikes could have been imported and sold here as is because they were compliant to the federal definition but for some reason they wanted to push the US to harmonize as closely as possible (the higher power and throttle allowance pretty much made complete harmonization impossible).

I think the moral of the story is create whatever you want, call it whatever you want and sell it to whoever will buy it. Then it's "catch me if you can". At the end of the day, the onus falls on the end user. They are the ones who may or may not have the problem with law enforcement. And as that stands right now, cops are probably more confused than anyone and will likely avoid confrontation unless the end user is doing something stupid and endangering others. This is the end result of unclear legislation and fortunately I will long be retired before any of this matters.

 

[J.R.]

I never said the bikes I sell were LSEB's...and I don't sell them as such. They are sold as "not intended for use on public roads". I don't advocate these be allowed on federal land trails for bike use (OK for motor vehicle use trails, though). As an importer and manufacturer, I need clearly defined classes from a product development standpoint, especially in the "wild west" category ABOVE 750W and BELOW a motorcycle. This is a merky mess right now. I brought up the "big picture" because I'm a big picture guy. I have always thought the 3 class system looked liked it was derived by committee...make everyone happy inside the room, screw everyone else outside the room. I still think ALL motorized bikes should be classified together from a federal standpoint and that a class should exist that is permissable on the bike trails on our federal lands. I still think the 3 classes are 1 or 2 classes in reality.
Furthermore, I question the legality of selling bikes as class 2 because they have a switch to limit the speed or power. Where does it say this is legal? All of the bikes I sell have speed limiter switches to limit the top speed to 20 mph. I don't pretend to think this makes them class 2 ebikes like some other companies. If the laws allowed for a method to switch to class 1 mode or even class 2 that would be a great bike to develop, assuming it was truly class one 750W max, pedal assist, 20mph cut off. I don't ever see this happening but I do see some companies currently lying to themselves and to their customers.

Compromise usually does end up with everyone being a bit satisfied and dissatisfied at the same time. It isn't the end, it is just the thin edge of the wedge. Personally I would like to see class 2 included where class 1 is allowed. People often see a throttle as a security blanket, just in case... Cheaper bikes often have throttle, so the price of admission is lower.

We originally set out to get all legal ebikes in the state included. At the beginning we didn't have any support, in the end I think it was a vote of 9 to 2 or 3 in support of class 1. There's a thread here about how it all went down. It was a compromise. They could have just kept the ban. To be completely honest, I expected a hostile relationship between us and them. The only hostility came from a couple members of the public, one or two of the board members and the guy who wrote the 2014 law legalizing ebikes in the state. Most of the board members, parks representatives and county commissioner were really nice. They wanted to learn about ebikes. They turned out for a demo ride event we set up. I was pleasantly surprised.

 

[Asher]

I didn't make that claim. I don't think it's a secret that insurance companies love insurance mandates and they will lobby to get any new product they can achieve that on. In Europe they were successful in getting speed pedelecs to require insurance and registration so I think it's very very plausible they will try to do that on Class 3 ebikes here in the US if the 3-class system legally stands / expands. With one federal definition for a LSEB that is "use" regulated by the states as a bike there isn't really much of a chance for the greed of the insurance industry to get a foothold to monetize bikes. Please let's not argue the virtues of the insurance industry and that they would never try to monetize class 3 / speed pedelec ebikes (insurance industry executives would sell their 1st born to monetize anything with mandatory policies...sorry but that is a universal truth).

What does P4B have to do with insurers?

 

[kmccune]

What do you mean by "proposing to vend"?

Vend equal sell? You are building to sale?

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

Vend equal sell? You are building to sale?

Right now I am US distributor for Denzel. My company is Hightail Electric Bikes. My website is hightailebikes.com
I am a manufacturer for electronic assembly equipment with my other company Versatec. This business is winding down, it is why I started Hightail. I am designing an electric bike now with hopes to manufacture them here. Of course some things are globally sourced including form China but my own design and planning to assemble here.

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

Compromise usually does end up with everyone being a bit satisfied and dissatisfied at the same time. It isn't the end, it is just the thin edge of the wedge. Personally I would like to see class 2 included where class 1 is allowed. People often see a throttle as a security blanket, just in case... Cheaper bikes often have throttle, so the price of admission is lower.

We originally set out to get all legal ebikes in the state included. At the beginning we didn't have any support, in the end I think it was a vote of 9 to 2 or 3 in support of class 1. There's a thread here about how it all went down. It was a compromise. They could have just kept the ban. To be completely honest, I expected a hostile relationship between us and them. The only hostility came from a couple members of the public, one or two of the board members and the guy who wrote the 2014 law legalizing ebikes in the state. Most of the board members, parks representatives and county commissioner were really nice. They wanted to learn about ebikes. They turned out for a demo ride event we set up. I was pleasantly surprised.

People being reasonable and listening to one another with open minds?...that's refreshing!

 

[Hightail Electric Bikes]

The 50cc land speed setting modified Aprillia RS50 motor makes 27hp. Your specs that a 49cc motor is same as 750W / 1hp ebike are way off.

I understand electric motor rating provides higher peak values, but the federal specification limits actual dynamic power above 20mph to only what can sustain 170lb rider on level surface (constants). The higher peak power below 20mph makes sense for cargo and utility ebikes which will be constrained pretty much to 20mph top assist speeds.

sorry...I had a brain fart. 750W is equivalent to 1HP but not to 49cc...not sure where I got the 49cc which should be closer to 3HP

 

[Ken M]

Because of the reasons I mentioned. No one wants to go to a 2 or 3 day motorcycle safety course to learn to ride a 250 lb motorcycle so they then can ride there 1000W pedal assist ebike legally (once they register it, course). It's not to avoid the course. You don't go to Skip Barber racing school so you can get a drivers license.

Until yesterday I never heard of "class 4" which I don't believe actually exists anywhere other than as a concept. Trust me, if you were in the business of selling electric bikes over 750W you would know what I'm talking about. Every state has murky, conflicting, unclear definitions and laws regarding "scooters", "mopeds" etc...

Seems to me "LSEB" proponents don't care about anything other than the holy grail of being allowed to ride on federal land trails and bike lanes (and anywhere analog bikes are allowed) and motorcycle proponents couldn't really care less about anything that isn't a motorcycle. To say there is nothing in between is just sticking your head in the sand. This thread interested me but I can see that the shortsightedness that created the 3 class system is too ingrained. This may be the wrong place to talk about anything beyond 750W ebikes...that's the sense I'm getting...but it is also why the laws are so conflicting, because no one cares to solve the bigger puzzle first.

NTHSA states a motor-drive cycle is “a motorcycle with a motor that produces 5–brake horsepower or less.”[2] Since these mopeds are regulated by NHTSA, they cannot be imported into or sold in the United States without complying with the FMVSS.[3] I wonder if you can petition the NHTSA to expand this product category for the eMopeds/ecycles you sell but that allows a "motor rating" over 3,750 watts. The good news is that there does not seem to be a top speed capability identified as they probably know that 3,750 W (albeit a rating so peak can kick up speed a bit vs nominal) is going to keep this catagory as urban mobility.

If you want to have more power and not be a motorcycle you would likely have to petition the NHTSA to consider an increase in power but I think that would be unlikely to happen. Take that definition and focus on IDing the states that have friendly registration and insurance requirements for motor-drive cycles. Your "off-road" Denzels can be whatever power level you want to promote them as but your street use Denzels really need to comply with the 5-brake hoursepower limit.

I 100% agree that neither street or off-road models with that level of performance should be lumped in with LSEBs or motorcycles. I think you'll find that most states do have some tolerable regulation of sub 5-bhp motor-drive cycles.

Fairly recent legal "opinion" article on this subject: https://www.retailconsumerproductsl...sdiction-over-certain-micromobility-products/

Be cautious because some on this tread will claim that these "motor-drive cycles" will end up denying them trail riding prevledges ... they think anything you can get on besides a class 1 ebike will somehow deny them their trail riding. They are pretty nutty that way.