Speed Governor

[legsofbeer]

Thanks. I understand that the Bolton controller is compatible with several 2019 Rad bikes (including the new tail light addition). The question at hand is whether the Bolton (and/or EBW) controller is compatible with the newest/latest 2020 models, under the (as-of-yet unconfirmed) assumption that RPB has made changes to their stock controller in order to block the speed limiter hack/override? If the extra/loopback cable to which you refer is the same "mystery" plug to which @EBJ above refers, and this cable is benign with respect to speed control, then it seems relatively safe to further assume that the Bolton controller will still work as expected with the newer 2020 models. But again, I am seeking reliable/confident confirmation.

Bolton specs their controller upgrade as compatible with 2020 model radrovers. If it works on 2020s, then I have to assume the 2019 stock controller also works on 2020s.

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Bolton specs their controller upgrade as compatible with 2020 model radrovers. If it works on 2020s, then I have to assume the 2019 stock controller also works on 2020s.

Ah, that's somewhat useful information, as I now notice on Kyle's website: "Plug and play for 2019 and 2020 Radrover models." Yet as mentioned, I am specifically interested in compatibility with the RadRunners. Additionally, I wonder when this was last updated? Because more specifically still, the current speculation is that RPB did not implement their new speed restriction until around mid-to-late May 2020. But in any case, and to repeat, I think the best option is to just ask Kyle for an update -- if he doesn't know, then chances are that nobody knows (except RPB who are not likely to discuss this topic with customers).

 

[EBJ]

In the photo of the Rad OEM controller posted by legsofbeer, the suspected mystery/programming connector is the one at the end of the the wire on the lower left (one of the five on THAT end, I forgot to mention the two wires on the other end of the controller).

 

[AHicks]

hmm, this does nothing at all. I need to be able to turn it off altogether and also be able to turn it back on.

With the stock OEM controller, that's not possible. Period.

 

[AHicks]

Ah, that's somewhat useful information, as I now notice on Kyle's website: "Plug and play for 2019 and 2020 Radrover models." Yet as mentioned, I am specifically interested in compatibility with the RadRunners. Additionally, I wonder when this was last updated? Because more specifically still, the current speculation is that RPB did not implement their new speed restriction until around mid-to-late May 2020. But in any case, and to repeat, I think the best option is to just ask Kyle for an update -- if he doesn't know, then chances are that nobody knows (except RPB who are not likely to discuss this topic with customers).

As regarding the "new speed restriction" which may or may not be the case (I've never heard of it, but I don't ride a 'runner either), that would apply to the software within the RAD controller only.

When switching to the Bolton supplied, KT based controller, the RAD software is no longer in play. None of it. It's replaced entirely by the KT based software, which is vastly improved over that available from RAD. It also comes with a display, that you'll be using to configure the new controller - with a speed limit that can be set at 99mph if you like...

 

[cuekwe Jones]

As regarding the "new speed restriction" which may or may not be the case (I've never heard of it, but I don't ride a 'runner either), that would apply to the software within the RAD controller only.

When switching to the Bolton supplied, KT based controller, the RAD software is no longer in play. None of it. It's replaced entirely by the KT based software, which is vastly improved over that available from RAD. It also comes with a display, that you'll be using to configure the new controller - with a speed limit that can be set at 99mph if you like...

Thanks. I understand how the Bolton mod works (generally speaking), and its benefits. It stands to reason, on the surface, that swapping both the stock display and controller with the Bolton controller/KT display should eliminate any Rad-implemented speed restrictions. But @EBJ raised the specter of some extra "mystery" cable on newer Rad controllers (or at least, as he qualifies, on the Mini) -- what does this cable do?, and to what does it connect? If some change has in fact been made to the stock controller, is the Bolton mod forward-compatible with this change? For instance, are there any new pins/signals going to the motor that are absent on the Bolton controller? Seems unlikely, again on the surface. But before shelling out $220 for the Bolton upgrade, I am simply trying to rule-out any potential foils (while also fishing around to see if perhaps someone has figured out another way of getting around the new speed restriction, again under the assumption that this report is true).
But again, thanks all the same for your feedback.

 

[AHicks]

The only wire that I can think of, that might be considered as an "extra" by anyone, would be the one for the brake light. Earlier bikes (pre 2019?) didn't have those.

To be as clear as absolutely possible, there are no speed restrictions on the KT/Bolton controllers - not unless you set them.

The Bolton controller is designed as a drop in replacement for RAD bikes dating back to '17. The ONLY difference between the '17 bikes and the newest available, are the brake lights. That's it. You can actually go back further than '17, but you'll run into trouble with the wire that plugs into the battery rack - that changed when they came out with the '17's (no big deal). Everything else would work just fine....

And no, I have no association with Bolton. The only thing I can say is that when Bolton came out with his "kit" I had been running KT controllers and displays for a couple of years. Most recently on a converted '17 Rad City that I had installed a 1000w MAC 12t drive on. Still a very strong performer.... -Al

 

[EBJ]

The only wire that I can think of, that might be considered as an "extra" by anyone, would be the one for the brake light...

Then what would you call the wire at the lower left of legsofbeers picture of a current (2019-20) generation Rad OEM controller? It is rectangular (NOT a round Higo or Julet type), has 4 open female connectors/pins underneath a tethered rubber protective cap and it CONNECTS TO ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, it's just tied into the bundle of excess wire lengths on CURRENT production model Rad bikes. It would have no bearing on the use of any aftermarket controller because it would be gone when the Rad OEM controller was removed.

 

[AHicks]

Not wanting to take the time to figure something like that out. Maybe it's used when flashing the controller. Don't know, don't care. I'm one that prioritizes function. If it works, I'm good.

With all the successfull installations of this kit, do you think there is a chance you may be overthinking all this a little? -Al

 

[EBJ]

...Don't know, don't care...

That's obvious. But maybe some of the ~99% of Rad owners with substantially unmodified bikes want to better understand how their bikes work and share observations about recent production changes and how they might affect the capabilities of their bikes without being derided and told to just give up and install magic aftermarket stuff.

 

[AHicks]

If I were looking for that kind of specific info, I might be tempted to post a new topic for discussion, being as specific as I could about exactly what I was looking for. That's me though....

I would not have wasted my time providing information I mistakenly thought you were asking for.

 

[BKing]

The unused wire is just for flashing, you need their software to create the firmware. Someone might eventually figure out which software to use but you still need the source code to tweak and upload. I doubt the controller will download to the program, it’s a one way path. Diagnostics are of no use, the controller is encapsulated and unrepairable unless maybe a bad FET. If the designer wanted to be mean he could put something into the firmware that turns the controller into a brick if someone tries to hack into it. The motor only has sensors for syncing the controller and an rpm sensor. Here is a circuit to generate a set speed signal to in effect disable the normal speed signal.

 

[ExPatBrit]

That's obvious. But maybe some of the ~99% of Rad owners with substantially unmodified bikes want to better understand how their bikes work and share observations about recent production changes and how they might affect the capabilities of their bikes without being derided and told to just give up and install magic aftermarket stuff.

The four pin connector is probably RS232 or CAN just used in manufacturing to program the box. Wiring is thin so just enough to power comms.

At some point maybe someone will try an old US display on a new controller and vice versa to see what is blocking the max speed setting.

Canadian Rad Rovers were hard locked out at 500W and European units at 250W so the capability for Rad to limit power/top speed was always there.

 

[cuekwe Jones]

The four pin connector is probably RS232 or CAN just used in manufacturing to program the box. Wiring is thin so just enough to power comms.

At some point maybe someone will try an old US display on a new controller and vice versa to see what is blocking the max speed setting.

Canadian Rad Rovers were hard locked out at 500W and European units at 250W so the capability for Rad to limit power/top speed was always there.

Well, given all the Bolton/EBW upgrades that folks seem to be buying, there ought to be as many of the older non-restricted Rad controllers out there for sale. I'm in the market for one if anyone is selling.

 

[legsofbeer]

there ought to be as many of the older non-restricted Rad controllers out there for sale. I'm in the market for one if anyone is selling.

er... just shipped mine. Maybe post a want ad in the classifieds?

 

[cuekwe Jones]

Maybe post a want ad in the classifieds?

Just did, thanks.

 

[legsofbeer]

On my ride into work today, I turned PAS to 0 and did 28.6 mph down a long hill, pedaling as fast as I could. I reached the bottom of the hill, kept pedaling and went to PAS 2 / 3 up the other side of the hill. Hopefully this helps. At 24.7 mph in PAS 1 - 5 the motor will try to restrict speed.

In my experience (referring to 2019 stock radrover) the motor doesn't try to restrict speed, it just shuts off at 24.7 mph and then you experience the usual motor magnet drag. I've hit 31 mph on a hill with the bike powered on at PAS3. On the flat I could get up to 28 mph before the pedal cadence goes beyond silly. The last 3.3 mph is on me.