Safety with E Bikes

[Bruce Arnold]

Bruce. I do understand that the throttle makes things easier. I’m not saying people shouldn’t have them. If you like the throttle, and it works for your lifestyle, then by all means who am I to judge what you do. I am simply stating my opinion that:

1- it’s purpose is to make it easier (potentially effortless). I don’t think a throttle is necessarily a safety feature. In fact, I think one could argue it both ways. From my perspective reliance on a throttle could get you into trouble as well.. as already mentioned, it certainly removes a level of connectivity with the bike and environment. The OP was discussing things from a safety stance, not a judgment on whether people should have them.

2- I believe a throttle changes the classification from bike to something else. It’s just my feelings on the matter. This isn’t to say you shouldn’t ride that something else (as disclosed, I own and enjoy motorcycles with throttles).

People have told you over and over why a throttle is a safety feature for them, and not just a convenience. Why do you refuse to listen? Do you think if you say the same thing again, we'll all say Oh, there's no safety value in a throttle after all! How silly we have been!

You say it's just your opinion, but you state it as fact. For instance: "it’s purpose is to make it easier (potentially effortless)." When you say "its purpose is", you aver this to be truth, not your impression


Do you not understand how disrespectful you have been to all of us who have said we do use the throttle for our safety?

 

[Figs]

Traditional bike rider “an eBike is cheating, it’s not really a bike”

Class 1 eBike rider “having a throttle is cheating, it’s not an eBike, it’s a moped”

The same closed, protective mindset. Sad really.

As long as each of us enjoy and use what we have, why do we belittle what others enjoy and use. I guess I’ll never understand.

 

[PDoz]

Traditional bike rider “an eBike is cheating, it’s not really a bike”

Class 1 eBike rider “having a throttle is cheating, it’s not an eBike, it’s a moped”

The same closed, protective mindset. Sad really.

As long as each of us enjoy and use what we have, why do we belittle what others enjoy and use. I guess I’ll never understand.

I wonder if the perspective varies depending on our reasons for change? Those of us who moved to ebikes due to physical limitations might have a very different perspective to those who moved in search of fun or out of convenience ? Especially if we feel bad about the choices we made.

A couple of weeks ago I was riding my ebike in a supportive role for a high school mountain bike day. I offered several people a ride , and without exception, those who took the opportunity had a huge smile on their face. The boy who refused was struggling away at the back of the group and saw it as a personal failing to be needing an ebike. All the other kids recognised ebikes as a way to enjoy the uphills that they were still capable of riding.

From my perspective, I wanted an ebike before the injuries that meant I needed an ebike. So I have mixed emotions - I recognise how much more fun I'm having, but at the same time it's challenging to accept my limitations . For me, a throttle represents one step closer to a mobility scooter, but also represents a potentially usefull tool.

There is a section of track I ride where a throttle would be a LOT safer - it's a few hundred metres of eroded loamy single track and almost impossible to ride without pedal strikes. I'd like a throttle for this section, but I'm not sure I want a throttle tempting me whilst struggling up those rocky, technical hills where I have to perfect pedal timing and power output.

I'm a motorbike rider trying to find my place as a mountain bike rider.....not entirely sure a throttle is a temptation I want...but reasonably sure it's something I'd enjoy. That's personally challenging , and just a little bit threatening - especially since I've spent a fortune on a bike that can't have a throttle fitted!

 

[Trihonda]

People have told you over and over why a throttle is a safety feature for them, and not just a convenience. Why do you refuse to listen? Do you think if you say the same thing again, we'll all say Oh, there's no safety value in a throttle after all! How silly we have been!

You say it's just your opinion, but you state it as fact. For instance: "it’s purpose is to make it easier (potentially effortless)." When you say "its purpose is", you aver this to be truth, not your impression


Do you not understand how disrespectful you have been to all of us who have said we do use the throttle for our safety?

I have repeatedly said I’m not against people having throttles. It’s just not my thing. I acknowledge the throttle is a feature that makes sense for some riders, and that if it makes sense for you, then you should use a throttle, free of judgement from anyone, including me, In fairness, I’ll go back and look sincerely at how I’m responding, since you feel I’m being disrespectful. Update: In reviewing some of my initial responses, they were very condescending. My apologies.

I’ve not told anyone they shouldn’t use a throttle, I’m just wondering how they are classified as a safety feature. I honestly don’t understand. I want to understand, not just prove myself correct. I believe our miscommunication is occurring because of our different perspectives and maybe some semantics? For instance. I think a feature that makes it possible for somone to ride is a great thing, but when does it move I to the realm of safety?

Why do I care? Well, it’s my job. I teach bike safety to kids, and I teach several 1-week long MTB schools to police officers each year. The police cyclist course involves a lot of vehicular cycling, skill building, and bicycle safety. And part of why I’m here, is I’m trying to learn about ebikes, as I’ve recently started to advocate for them in the police world. I believe they are a good thing, and a trend that is rapidly growing. I will even be teaching several ebike mtb skill building workshops in the coming year.

I’m also fairly experienced in bike safety, bike handling, and vehicular cycling (for all sorts of rider abilities). I believe throttles might make it possible for some folks to ride (where they might not otherwise be able), and I think that’s a good thing. But for me to integrate ebikes into my trainings, I need to understand all aspects of them, including safety features (or potential safety issues). With my expertise and understanding of bikes, I worry that throttles (while maybe necessary for some) have some small potential to place a rider into unsafe situations, or create a reliance that prevents proper skill development. This is just my bias, and I’m open to being proven wrong.

Several folks have said that throttles allow them to ride, and are safety features, since without a throttle they couldn’t ride. I dont automatically consider a feature that allows me to ride as a safety feature. Gears allow me to ride (and go forward). Gearing is also feature that allows me to accelerate fast, climb hills, and maintain efficiency and proper pedal cadence to prevent overuse injuries, but I’d never consider the gears a safety feature. Brakes on the other hand are something I’d consider a safety feature. This is where I think that semantics are causing a misunderstanding. People are taking offense because they feel that a throttle is a safety feature to them, and I am not yet convinced (from a clinical definition standpoint).
I’m certainly not trying to attack throttles, just questioning them being classified as a safety device? And yes it’s part opinion, but also part question. Certainly not an issue worth arguing angrily over.

My last point is that the OP opened this up for discussion. A discussion almost always involves more than one view. And I’m just trying to participate, share, learn and grow. I’ve been open about my biases and opinions, but I certainly don’t want to be disrespectful of the membership here in the process of participating.

 

[AlanDB]

@Trihonda ... you make good and valid points that I generally agree with. That said, have you ever witnessed someone trying to make that slow, wobbly start up from a stop when they are in the wrong gear on a derailleur shifting system? Being in the wrong gear can happen so easily ... making a sudden stop, or just forgetting to downshift before stopping. It happened to me so many times on my conventional bike. You can chalk it up to poor riding skills, old age forgetfulness or whatever, but it happens. I make mistakes. And it is a safety issue.

Fortunately for me, I bought an e-bike without a throttle but with an IGH that can downshift when stopped, so it is no longer a problem for me. But I completely understand how having a throttle can make for safer startups, especially on a heavy e-bike.

 

[Trihonda]

@Trihonda ...have you ever witnessed someone trying to make that slow, wobbly start up from a stop when they are in the wrong gear on a derailleur shifting system?

ALL the time... and it’s typically followed by a short discussion with my class about proper down shifting when coming to a stop. Developing good habits will lead to not having to think about shifting later on.

When someone is slow to start at an intersection, I’ve never (in the past) categorized this as a major safety issue, but I do see the potential in certain circumstances. I’ve mostly considered the potential for component abuse when grinding the gears and attempting to shift under torque, and the issues when group riding, and having fellow riders separated. That said, I can see the benefit of clearing an intersection more quickly, and can see how some riders might consider it more safe to do so. Valid point.

I heard (from my local bike shop today), that most ebikers just leave their ebikes in the hardest gear (full time), and have no problems at startup? I am not sure if that’s a real thing... is it?

 

[larry-new]

I have repeatedly said I’m not against people having throttles. It’s just not my thing. I acknowledge the throttle is a feature that makes sense for some riders, and that if it makes sense for you, then you should use a throttle, free of judgement from anyone, including me, In fairness, I’ll go back and look sincerely at how I’m responding, since you feel I’m being disrespectful. Update: In reviewing some of my initial responses, they were very condescending. My apologies.

I’ve not told anyone they shouldn’t use a throttle, I’m just wondering how they are classified as a safety feature. I honestly don’t understand. I want to understand, not just prove myself correct. I believe our miscommunication is occurring because of our different perspectives and maybe some semantics? For instance. I think a feature that makes it possible for somone to ride is a great thing, but when does it move I to the realm of safety?

Why do I care? Well, it’s my job. I teach bike safety to kids, and I teach several 1-week long MTB schools to police officers each year. The police cyclist course involves a lot of vehicular cycling, skill building, and bicycle safety. And part of why I’m here, is I’m trying to learn about ebikes, as I’ve recently started to advocate for them in the police world. I believe they are a good thing, and a trend that is rapidly growing. I will even be teaching several ebike mtb skill building workshops in the coming year.

I’m also fairly experienced in bike safety, bike handling, and vehicular cycling (for all sorts of rider abilities). I believe throttles might make it possible for some folks to ride (where they might not otherwise be able), and I think that’s a good thing. But for me to integrate ebikes into my trainings, I need to understand all aspects of them, including safety features (or potential safety issues). With my expertise and understanding of bikes, I worry that throttles (while maybe necessary for some) have some small potential to place a rider into unsafe situations, or create a reliance that prevents proper skill development. This is just my bias, and I’m open to being proven wrong.

Several folks have said that throttles allow them to ride, and are safety features, since without a throttle they couldn’t ride. I dont automatically consider a feature that allows me to ride as a safety feature. Gears allow me to ride (and go forward). Gearing is also feature that allows me to accelerate fast, climb hills, and maintain efficiency and proper pedal cadence to prevent overuse injuries, but I’d never consider the gears a safety feature. Brakes on the other hand are something I’d consider a safety feature. This is where I think that semantics are causing a misunderstanding. People are taking offense because they feel that a throttle is a safety feature to them, and I am not yet convinced (from a clinical definition standpoint).
I’m certainly not trying to attack throttles, just questioning them being classified as a safety device? And yes it’s part opinion, but also part question. Certainly not an issue worth arguing angrily over.

My last point is that the OP opened this up for discussion. A discussion almost always involves more than one view. And I’m just trying to participate, share, learn and grow. I’ve been open about my biases and opinions, but I certainly don’t want to be disrespectful of the membership here in the process of participating.

To the extent that a throttle allows a biker with a 60# bike to promptly get across vehicular traffic, in an otherwise delayed encounter, it is indeed a safety aid.

 

[PDoz]

@Trihonda , if you consider students facing a section of challenging terrain where multiple feet strikes are a risk, do you consider a throttle might be a safety feature? I can imagine an argument from the police mtb riders, that being able to stand with pedals level and condentrate on line selection rather than pedal position might free up some of their attention for getting on with " the job" ( ie keeping a loot out for whatever they are supposed to be patrolling for)

Again, I'm a motorbike bike rider learning to become a mountain bike rider - so pedal strikes amd possition is the skill I struggle with the most. Plus I'm recovering from 4 brocken bones in my foot so I'm just a little paranoid about pedal strikes.....

 

[PDoz]

Oops....keeping a looK out....I'm not intentionally calling them corrupt.....

 

[PDoz]

I guess that depends on the size of the rocks, but if that's a chronic problem you may want to look at bikes with higher bottom brackets and shorter crank arms.

This is an example of where I get nervous about pedal strikes. It's a lot steeper than it looks on the mobile camera, but you get some perspective of how easy it is to clip the right pedal negotiating around the next tree.

 

[PDoz]

Another spot where I suspect throttle would be nice - just towards the top of the hill you have to negotiate a v between 2 rocks

 

[6zfshdb]

There are Ebikes available now for all types and styles of riding. Most of the controversy in this thread seems to involve mountain style riders who tend to be younger versus road / rail trail riders who may be a bit older. The bike equipment useful for these different purposes varies greatly and one size does not fit all. Equip your bike to suit your own needs and let others do the same.

 

[MechaNut]

ALL the time... and it’s typically followed by a short discussion with my class about proper down shifting when coming to a stop. Developing good habits will lead to not having to think about shifting later on.

When someone is slow to start at an intersection, I’ve never (in the past) categorized this as a major safety issue, but I do see the potential in certain circumstances. I’ve mostly considered the potential for component abuse when grinding the gears and attempting to shift under torque, and the issues when group riding, and having fellow riders separated. That said, I can see the benefit of clearing an intersection more quickly, and can see how some riders might consider it more safe to do so. Valid point.

I heard (from my local bike shop today), that most ebikers just leave their ebikes in the hardest gear (full time), and have no problems at startup? I am not sure if that’s a real thing... is it?

Based on how I ride my own e-bikes I would say it is highly likely. The more sensitive the pedal assist system, the quicker the motor responds to input from the rider or in the case of throttle when the rider manually engages motor power. My first e-bike (Radcity) uses a 12 magnet cadence sensor and takes roughly half a crank rotation to detect that I'm pedalling. As a result accelerating from a stop takes a little effort for a short time and then the motor kicks in. My new e-bike (Ripcurrent-S) uses a torque and cadence combo sensor that responds functionally immediately. The hub motors, in either case, don't utilize the gearing on the bike at all so any gear shifts are almost entirely optional. The only time I really change gears on either bike is to climb a hill or moderate my speed. Otherwise the torque from the motor is going directly into turning the rear wheel which overcomes the need to use the mechanical advantages of gears in most non-hill situations. Even though mid-drives apply their torque differently than hub motors I'm going to guess that mid-drive riders largely do the same because the torque from the motor will largely overcome the need to use different gears to accelerate from a stop.

 

[Over50]

Pretty good article to debate. And gruesome account of cyclist injury:

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?

www.bloomberg.com

 

[teskow]

For negotiating tight places a walk mode or the throttle is invaluable. Wouldn't be with out it.
I wonder why some on this forum even agree with electric assist on their bike. Hell we don't need that either unless we need the assist. Da.
I need all the help I can get at my age.
I have lots of aids to be sure.
My throttle aid on my ebike.
The pedals.
The gearing.
The brakes.
The suspension seat.
Seeing aids.
Hearing aids.
Chewing aids.
Constipation aids and the list goes on.
Some day I won't need any more aids.
God bless those who need no aids.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

I wouldn't have minded having a throttle, but the bike that felt best to me and which had the most torque for our hills is a Class 1, so no throttle. I am so thrilled with my superman legs just from the assist, that I don't feel any need for a throttle.

There's another word conundrum : you use the throttle to make a bike go, but if you throttle your neighbor, you won't be riding your bike anywhere for 25 to life.

 

[Sifu Ben]

I have 2 ebikes, one with throttle and the other without. Right now, I prefer the non-throttle Fuji which is lighter and responsive but when my knee was flaring up and swollen, the Rad Rover was a great bike because I didn't have to worry about starting torque from a standstill which saved my knee.

 

[M1Rate]

Today I was given a further understanding of the increased safety with e bikes. In front of my property is a state highway, During the Summer it increases in volume due to the recreation and amusement parks north of me. To add to the situation is a detour using the road also. Normally in the middle of the day it's not so bad so I took off to go to town. I only have to ride a half mile to get to a side road for my journey. Well today the road had some surprises. Seemingly out of nowhere I was put in a squeeze play with opposite direction semis leaving me a window that was rapidly decreasing. Anyway...thank goodness for my Throttle. I ramped up speed so fast that the E bike smile appeared on my otherwise worried face. I suppose I should wait until the detour is over(but I don't want too ). If you know your bike and how to use it I really believe E bikes with rapid acceleration can be a potential life saver..IMHO

Completely agree. Speed is often your friend.

 

[Cowlitz]

I don't care. Throttle or no. I have one on the Radmini. That is a big, heavy clunky bike and I ride it in the woods. I use the throttle on it to get going from a stop up hill. That's a nice feature.

I don't have one on my Gazelle. I don't need one to get going as the Gazelle is a light and very responsive bike.

This topic is brought up so much, I am surprised there isn't a specific meme for it.

Ride your own bike. Be nice. Don't run over people and animals, with or without a throttle.