Quick update on Archon / Rohloff / Kindernay tests

[Wald]

Did someone try using those shift/gear sensors for Bafang which you can find on ebay and co.?
I ordered one and played around with it. But to my understanding they won't work with the Rohloff. Because the shifter cable has to move before the sensor engages and that is not how the Rohloff works.
Or did i miss something and someone is successfully using those sensors with a Rohloff?

 

[Deacon Blues]

I like the "clutch" button too. Great idea, Wald.

 

[Deafcat]

Yes, that's what i had to learn first. but you get used to it pretty fast.


However, it wasn't satisfying and i wanted to shift quicker.
So i made myself some sort of "clutch button". The red button labeled with the "horn" symbol is connected to the brake circuit from the motor. Whenever i press it the motor gets shut down, just like when pulling the brake lever.
So when i want to shift i press the button, reduce pressure on the pedals and twist the shifter, then release the button and hit the pedals again. When i get the timing right i can shift and accelerate pretty fast!

Been using an electronic "clutch lever" on my Ultra bike since late 2018, I won't have a mid drive ebike without one! It takes over the connection from the front brake interrupt. Built from a cheap brake lever housing with a custom single finger lever, sits right below/behind my front brake lever.

Not a fan of shift sensor. Manual interrupt is so much sportier!

 

[Wald]

Been using an electronic "clutch lever" on my Ultra bike since late 2018, I won't have a mid drive ebike without one! It takes over the connection from the front brake interrupt. Built from a cheap brake lever housing with a custom single finger lever, sits right below/behind my front brake lever.

Not a fan of shift sensor. Manual interrupt is so much sportier!

Same idea, two different solutions.
The 3d printed lever is really cool.

@Deafcat
Is your bike equipped with a Rohloff?
And why didn't you like the shiftsensor exactly? Was it one of those cheap ones from ebay or the expensive version from gearsensor itself? Because gearsensor.com is claiming that their sensor is suitable with an igh.

 

[AdilDesai]

Same idea, two different solutions.
The 3d printed lever is really cool.

@Deafcat
Is your bike equipped with a Rohloff?
And why didn't you like the shiftsensor exactly? Was it one of those cheap ones from ebay or the expensive version from gearsensor itself? Because gearsensor.com is claiming that their sensor is suitable with an igh.

Wouldn't it be easier to just incorporate a similar motor cutoff into the Kindernay thumb shifter? Is that even doable?

 

[Deafcat]

Same idea, two different solutions.
The 3d printed lever is really cool.

@Deafcat
Is your bike equipped with a Rohloff?
And why didn't you like the shiftsensor exactly? Was it one of those cheap ones from ebay or the expensive version from gearsensor itself? Because gearsensor.com is claiming that their sensor is suitable with an igh.

I've run SRAM NX-11 and X01-12 speed on my Ultra, the issue with shift sensors is that a) it doesn't interrupt until you've initiated the shift, and b) you have no control of the interrupt time.

With a good manual switch you have the advantage of fine tuning your own reflexes, exactly like you do with manual shifting sports cars

also: the interrupt switch/lever is great when you're coasting or maneuvering at low speed, say in traffic approaching a light, and you want to cut power (pedal-power only while you coast and shift down). basically any time you want to interrupt assist, it's right at your finger tips (without touching a brake lever).

 

[Cummins]

I have done around 500 miles riding on the Archon (includes test rig and physical riding) across both Rohloff and Kindernay, and here are some results that riders should be aware of.

Wattage	Mode (as shipped)	Rohloff	Kindernay
750W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
1000W	Eco	All gears work 1-14.	All gears work 1-14.
	Sport	Gears 1-5, Slips beyond gear 5 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)	Gears 1-7, Slips beyond gear 7 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. (total torque exceeds 250Nm)
2300W	Eco	All gears work 1-14	All gears work 1-14
	Sport	Gears 1-2. Slips beyond gear 2 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).	Gears 1-4. Slips beyond gear 4 if starting from dead stop or going uphill. Total Torque exceeds 250Nm).

Overall, 2 3 observations (added #3)

1. The Kindernay is turning out to be a little bit stronger, but not by much. I am biased because it is new / unique etc, but it is a little stronger in these tests.

2. Realistically the 1000W is probably more than enough for most, if not all scenarios. There is just a LOT of power.

3. This gear slipping also occurs on a chain / cassette system. A 12 Speed chain will break if you are not geared correctly, at right around 250-300Nm torque. A single speed thicker chain will slip on the cogs at 250Nm if geared incorrectly.

I will keep adding to this - but for riders who have the new controller with the Rohloff, please add to this.

I will include this on the site re-design in a few weeks.

Disclaimer: These are not super scientific tests and your values may differ slightly. That being said, we are trying to err on the side of caution and be a little more conservative.

Edit : added observation and disclaimer.

@pushkar Do you have testing stats like this for the Sturmey Archer 3 speed?

 

[pushkar]

1. Yes, both systems will work but I want everyone to be aware of what the current limits are.

2. Gear down is recommended while climbing. You will do that regardless.

3. No noticeable wear tbh .. 500 miles is not enough data - I will continue to test those.

TBH, realistically if we are able to get 20k - 25k miles per hub (so 6-8 years at ~3k miles/ year) at 2300W with regular oil change, that is pretty awesome in my book.

1. Yes, both systems will work but I want everyone to be aware of what the current limits are.

2. Gear down is recommended while climbing. You will do that regardless.

3. No noticeable wear tbh .. 500 miles is not enough data - I will continue to test those.

TBH, realistically if we are able to get 20k - 25k miles per hub (so 6-8 years at ~3k miles/ year) at 2300W with regular oil change, that is pretty awesome in my book.

So we are up to ~10
k Miles in testing ( basically the motor testing unit ) at full 3000W peak throttle. We shift gears every testing to even out the wear. Hub is running with load equivalent to 250 lbs (bike plus rider plus cargo on flat. ). No failures on the hub. We had one minor issue on the left shifter (loss of pressure) - probably because we left the shifter assembly in the air 24/7 though summer and winter. We re-bled it and it’s fine since. Still keeping it outside.

hub is good. we have done 2 oil changes. Any mineral oil is fine. Rear Gates cog is also very good state.

Note that we are not babying the hub. It takes a beating.

This is just awesome and reliable hub unit.

 

[pushkar]

@pushkar Do you have testing stats like this for the Sturmey Archer 3 speed?

We will be switching to SA hub for the next test rig. Will run more tests there.

 

[mmcarm]

I'm aiming primarily for offroad use and was wondering if a 48F/16R fixie configuration for they Hydra might work for my needs. Looking at the great Grin simulator config that jharrell posted earlier that gearing would require 80rpm for 20mph on flat, peaking at 130rpm for 32mph top speed (2kw Archon X1). The same gearing on the steeps would consume around 2kw to maintain 20mph on a 20% grade (same ~80rpm). Targeting 80rpm for pedal focus sounds right to me and having a 32mph "overdrive" if needed is nice and being able to get 15mph+ on steeps also fits my expectations. If there was a chain/gear set that was nearly unbreakable (like the 420 chain on the Sur Ron) appreciate any recommendations. Also appreciate other bad/good idea comments for this or similar range ideas. I think/hope the field weakening wide RPM range of the Archon X1 with a strong single gear drivetrain could provide a wide range of unbreakable speed and climb ability that would also allow a range of speed for reasonable exercise rpm. Other targets for this bike are adventure rides deep into steep backcountry and bulletproof drivetrain would be great to have.