Pedal assist
- Thread starter Savy1957
- Start date
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
My experience has been when speaking hub drives, every manf is a little different. NOBODY is qualified to give you a good answer to your question.
Further, after owning several, and admitting there's a 100% chance I'm completely spoiled, I'll say they are all varying degrees of bad. From terrible to worse.... Any more, I pretty much plan on converting anything I get to the available only on the aftermarket KT brand controllers.
I'll also say that for a first time buyer, that's not spoiled rotten, you'll be fine with 99% of them. It's not until you've ridden for a while that annoying little tid bits start adding up. Annoying enough where you'll want to avoid them when considering the next bike....
The issue is in the controller programming. The e-bike industry is still so young the manf's can get away with this. Eventually, as the market matures, people are going to demand more refinement. THEN we'll see some better stuff become available. Frustrating for me, as I KNOW what can be done, and the cost to do it right, using the equipment they're already using, an absolute flat zero. -Al
Further, after owning several, and admitting there's a 100% chance I'm completely spoiled, I'll say they are all varying degrees of bad. From terrible to worse.... Any more, I pretty much plan on converting anything I get to the available only on the aftermarket KT brand controllers.
I'll also say that for a first time buyer, that's not spoiled rotten, you'll be fine with 99% of them. It's not until you've ridden for a while that annoying little tid bits start adding up. Annoying enough where you'll want to avoid them when considering the next bike....
The issue is in the controller programming. The e-bike industry is still so young the manf's can get away with this. Eventually, as the market matures, people are going to demand more refinement. THEN we'll see some better stuff become available. Frustrating for me, as I KNOW what can be done, and the cost to do it right, using the equipment they're already using, an absolute flat zero. -Al
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I personally feel the any of the top manufacturers mid-drives are excellent. I have 2 Specialized, 1 Yamaha and 1 Bosch - all are smooth quality drive systems. Each has a different "feel". The Specialized is the smoothest, the Yamaha come on stronger and quicker with more snap, and the Bosch is powerful and smooth but not quite as smooth as the Specialized.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
Agree 100%. Mid drives generally much better from a controller refinement standpoint! There's no 3rd party in play like with the hub drives. Issue with the mid drives becomes expense. Generally they can only be sold/worked on by dealers, and all parts are propritary - available only from the manf that made them. Exception being the Bafang brand - who are not particularly well know for supplying "refined" software in their controllers.
Mike TowpathTraveler
Well-Known Member
From your own experience, tell us which one is best.....
Taylor57
Well-Known Member
6 of 1 half dozen of another
scrambler
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Bay Area, CA
Pedal assist is a wide subject, but we can split in into 2 main usage category, and two basic components.
The two main categories are the type of riding you are doing. Street or smooth trails cruising, or MTB rough terrain navigation.
The two main components of pedal assist are Cadence sensors, and Torque sensor.
1- Cadence sensor measure the cadence of your pedaling, so all they know is if you pedal and how fast, but they have no idea about how hard it is.
In order to get more of less assist, you mostly have to switch assist levels with a button on the handlebar.
Their base principle is that for a chosen assist Level, when they detect that you are pedaling, they will activate the full power of the assist level chosen, like an ON/OFF switch, and they will maintain that assist level until you stop pedaling.
In that rough implementation, they are good at providing a smooth ride when you cruise at regular speed, but they have a small delay before they kick in that can make starting from a dead stop uneasy (especially in a hill), and they have a delay before they cutoff that can be disconcerting. And if terrain changes you can find yourself constantly changing assist level.
Some controllers use smart programming to minimize their shortcoming. For example, some will reduce assist when you are pedaling faster, assuming pedaling is getting easier because you downshifted. Some will take the opposite approach and increase assist as you pedal faster, assuming you are trying to go faster etc... But these smart modes will only improve some scenarios while making other one worse.
2- Torque sensors measure the pressure you apply on the pedal, and provide an assist power that is proportional to that pressure. If you press a little you get a little assist, if you press a lot, you get a lot. Because the assist is directly proportional to the effort you put in, they feel very natural and intuitive. The assist level you chose is basically the multiplier of your input like 2X, 3X, 4X.... and they just make you feel super human.
Just by themselves, they are great in MTB and rough terrain situation, with up and down, obstacles etc... as they have instant response, and are infinitely variable at the pressure of your feet. But when cruising on the street or smooth trail, they would feel somewhat irregular, because in that situation, the pressure on the pedals is intermittent, and so is the assist provided.
Again, controller programming can smooth some of that irregularity.
3- Good Pedal Assist systems like found on the Bosch, Bafang and others, use both sensors and a cleaver programming to blend them based on effort, speed and cadence. This allows you to get the best of both worlds, with a variable assist that is instant and feels natural, and also offers smoothness when cruising.
Depending on the controller, they may also give you access to a lot of programming options, so you can fine tune the behavior based on the type of riding you do, and the feel you like.
So ideally look for a system that has both sensors.
If you can't have both, choose the type based on the riding you do most (Cadence for cruising, Torque for rough riding)
And do investigate from users how they respond, and what programming options (if any) are available to tune them to your liking.
The two main categories are the type of riding you are doing. Street or smooth trails cruising, or MTB rough terrain navigation.
The two main components of pedal assist are Cadence sensors, and Torque sensor.
1- Cadence sensor measure the cadence of your pedaling, so all they know is if you pedal and how fast, but they have no idea about how hard it is.
In order to get more of less assist, you mostly have to switch assist levels with a button on the handlebar.
Their base principle is that for a chosen assist Level, when they detect that you are pedaling, they will activate the full power of the assist level chosen, like an ON/OFF switch, and they will maintain that assist level until you stop pedaling.
In that rough implementation, they are good at providing a smooth ride when you cruise at regular speed, but they have a small delay before they kick in that can make starting from a dead stop uneasy (especially in a hill), and they have a delay before they cutoff that can be disconcerting. And if terrain changes you can find yourself constantly changing assist level.
Some controllers use smart programming to minimize their shortcoming. For example, some will reduce assist when you are pedaling faster, assuming pedaling is getting easier because you downshifted. Some will take the opposite approach and increase assist as you pedal faster, assuming you are trying to go faster etc... But these smart modes will only improve some scenarios while making other one worse.
2- Torque sensors measure the pressure you apply on the pedal, and provide an assist power that is proportional to that pressure. If you press a little you get a little assist, if you press a lot, you get a lot. Because the assist is directly proportional to the effort you put in, they feel very natural and intuitive. The assist level you chose is basically the multiplier of your input like 2X, 3X, 4X.... and they just make you feel super human.
Just by themselves, they are great in MTB and rough terrain situation, with up and down, obstacles etc... as they have instant response, and are infinitely variable at the pressure of your feet. But when cruising on the street or smooth trail, they would feel somewhat irregular, because in that situation, the pressure on the pedals is intermittent, and so is the assist provided.
Again, controller programming can smooth some of that irregularity.
3- Good Pedal Assist systems like found on the Bosch, Bafang and others, use both sensors and a cleaver programming to blend them based on effort, speed and cadence. This allows you to get the best of both worlds, with a variable assist that is instant and feels natural, and also offers smoothness when cruising.
Depending on the controller, they may also give you access to a lot of programming options, so you can fine tune the behavior based on the type of riding you do, and the feel you like.
So ideally look for a system that has both sensors.
If you can't have both, choose the type based on the riding you do most (Cadence for cruising, Torque for rough riding)
And do investigate from users how they respond, and what programming options (if any) are available to tune them to your liking.
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PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
On the very most basic bikes there is an external ring of magnets that turns along with the pedals. These magnets pass a pickup that senses how fast they are passing by or how fast the pedals are turning. It is called a Hall Sensor. One point does not make for data. Three magnets need to pass by the pickup for the system to determine pedaling speed or cadence. That is lag. Older systems had five or six magnets for cadence pedal assist. Newer basic systems had 12. Having more magnets made it smoother and more responsive. Now, this is all internally integrated for most quality bikes. Better bikes also measure the force on the pedals and not just the speed of pedaling. With these the throttle is in the pedals. They are torque sensor bikes.
Show us a photo of your bike.
Show us a photo of your bike.
AHicks
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Snow Bird - Summer S.E. Michigan, Winter Gulf Coast North Central Fl.
That's known as a speed based PAS. Each PAS level has a maximum speed. It's an OK system. Like I mentioned earlier, a new rider, not having experienced anything better, will likely be fine with that system.
PedalUma
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
- City
- Petaluma, CA
An okay starter bike. Getting into the game is the main thing. That is good. Yet, the superior bikes, your next upgrade, do not look electric and perform better. Far better.
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