Orbea Gain M20 - Battery Life???

[Jaxx]

I bought a

Ha! I bought a Cyclops smart trainer 2 years ago hoping I could get motivated to ride indoors. Set the everything up and it sat in the basement until my wife made me take it down to make room for Xmas.

My outdoor ride season is very schizophrenic. Can ride here in Canada from mid April to mid October. Take 3 weeks off until we go to AZ first week in November. Ride there for 5 weeks. Come home for Xmas. Take about 7 weeks off until we go back to AZ first week in February. We like to travel in January as we have to watch our number of days in US. This year is all screwed up with the craziness in the world right now. We had to come back to Canada mid March and I rode for first time since then last Friday. Rode Sunday and will go out tomorrow as I hope to do every second day.

Of course Cyclops is now re-branded Saris. Gotta say, like you I prefer the great outdoors. However along with my Snooker Table, I don't know how I would manage another eight weeks of having to isolate because of my condition. The Saris has really helped out. Not to improve, but maintain fitness levels (I don't go that hard on it) I've recorded almost 2000 miles using it, since mid January. BTW, your travelling arrangements are making me dizzy. And this is from someone who spent most of my working life in airports and planes.

 

[Captain Slow]

I also forgot to put my age in the stats, however I'm not saying that makes any difference as Fitness level is everything. But it's somewhat relevant in the stats.

My stats:
Orbea Gain M30 - Medium
160 lbs / 5'9" / 34 years old

We might be the same height and weight but, I'm a couple of decades older and was feeling old until Jaxx and Zeek mentioned their ages. I'm still old, but ever so slightly younger ……..

 

[oswaldr2]

Thinking about the battery here....

How do people clean their bikes from dirt and mud. Not talking the components, just getting the layer of dirt off.

Is a hose okay, or is the battery going to potentially get wet?

 

[Jaxx]

Thinking about the battery here....

How do people clean their bikes from dirt and mud. Not talking the components, just getting the layer of dirt off.

Is a hose okay, or is the battery going to potentially get wet?

I use wet wipes. Then again, it's only had one clean in a year. I prefer to spend the time riding. Washed the car today, because I was bored. First wash since December. I usually wait til it needs servicing and they do it. HATE CARS. The service indicator displays next one required is? May 2021. Only did 504 miles last year.

 

[MurphyDog]

Thinking about the battery here....

How do people clean their bikes from dirt and mud. Not talking the components, just getting the layer of dirt off.

Is a hose okay, or is the battery going to potentially get wet?

I've hosed my Gain down several times and I use muc-off cleaning spray. I have never had a problem.

 

[MurphyDog]

Battery report:

2019 Gain M20i (USA version)
I'm 5' 10" - 180 lbs

40 mile ride
1315 ft of climbing
Level 2 (MED) power nearly the entire way (set to Level 1 (ECO) for about 5 miles)
L1 50% - L2 70% - L3 60% (didn't use)
Avg Speed 17 mi/h

Used 84% of battery

I tried to keep under battery power the entire time (speed < 20 mph) because I wanted a low impact ride. I was happy with the outcome because I generally ride with the motor assist turned off or on L1 at 30% and have never used more than 25% of the battery on a single ride.

 

[yungleen]

Actually I think either Mahle and or Orbra recommend it somewhere in their literature, but it's also the way lithium batteries work. There's no magic to it and regardless of what the vendor claims everyone is subject to the same laws of nature, but it's up to the owner to decide what's important to them. Even Tesla points out in their manuals about how charging to 100 and discharging too low is bad for longevity, and their bms is light years better then those in ebikes. But if you're trying to get maximum range with a small battery some faster degradation may be a worthwhile trade-off.

Do you set a timer to remind you to go and stop the charging at 90 percent? Seems like a lot of work compared to leaving it plugged in until next ride.

I have a plug in hybrid car and I just leave it plugged in and often drive it to zero.

Don't some of the chargers have a switch where you can charge it to 90 and it will stop charging?

 

[Solom01]

Most hybrids or EV (with the exception of the Nissan Leaf which has had huge problems with premature battery wear) have extremely sophisticated battery management and temperature control systems - electric bikes are more like cell phones or other cheap electronics so they have no temperature control (except shutting down the system when it gets too hot) and they charge to 100%. There may be some exceptions but I don't know of any included charger that allows you to have it automatically turn off at a certain percentage. There are some third party chargers like the Grin Satiator that allow that, plus other helpful things such as controlling the charge rate (the higher it is the faster it charges, but the more it stresses the battery). What's even worse is that most chargers only balance the batteries at 100%, so on top of everything else you have to charge to 100% every so often to balance the cells. I don't fault this because adding these features would increase cost but I do fault most manufacturers for outright ignoring these facts by telling buyers things such as "charge it to 100% after every ride." At least Orbea has that information available, although it is not easy to find. Is it worth worrying about? It's up to the owner. Keep in mind however that it makes a huge difference in how quickly the battery degrades. On a bike with a small internal battery that is not user replaceable it's going to be an expensive job to replace the battery, and a 30% reduction in range with a small battery may make the bike no longer able to reach the range you need. Last but not least since bike batteries are often proprietary and the size, etc. changes from year to year even if the manufacturer is around in two or three years they may no longer make a replacement battery - so you face the choice of trashing an otherwise perfectly good bike or trying to track down a third party rebuilder which when dealing with a potentially explosive device makes me wary about using them. People often talk about how "green" electric bikes are, but since they are not as "green" as normal bikes to make if their lifespan is also shorter and they produce lithium battery waste I wonder if they are really all that "green".

 

[yungleen]

Most hybrids or EV (with the exception of the Nissan Leaf which has had huge problems with premature battery wear) have extremely sophisticated battery management and temperature control systems - electric bikes are more like cell phones or other cheap electronics so they have no temperature control (except shutting down the system when it gets too hot) and they charge to 100%. There may be some exceptions but I don't know of any included charger that allows you to have it automatically turn off at a certain percentage. There are some third party chargers like the Grin Satiator that allow that, plus other helpful things such as controlling the charge rate (the higher it is the faster it charges, but the more it stresses the battery). What's even worse is that most chargers only balance the batteries at 100%, so on top of everything else you have to charge to 100% every so often to balance the cells. I don't fault this because adding these features would increase cost but I do fault most manufacturers for outright ignoring these facts by telling buyers things such as "charge it to 100% after every ride." At least Orbea has that information available, although it is not easy to find. Is it worth worrying about? It's up to the owner. Keep in mind however that it makes a huge difference in how quickly the battery degrades. On a bike with a small internal battery that is not user replaceable it's going to be an expensive job to replace the battery, and a 30% reduction in range with a small battery may make the bike no longer able to reach the range you need. Last but not least since bike batteries are often proprietary and the size, etc. changes from year to year even if the manufacturer is around in two or three years they may no longer make a replacement battery - so you face the choice of trashing an otherwise perfectly good bike or trying to track down a third party rebuilder which when dealing with a potentially explosive device makes me wary about using them. People often talk about how "green" electric bikes are, but since they are not as "green" as normal bikes to make if their lifespan is also shorter and they produce lithium battery waste I wonder if they are really all that "green".

Mine is a Ford cmax energi and haven't noticed any degradation of the battery but I have only owned it for a year and drove under 5,000 miles. A fan in the trunk does go on to cool the battery while charging.

Are there any articles that you know of that go into this in more detail. I would love to read up on it. I was under the impression that modern batteries didn't have this issue anymore and don't worry about the way I charge my cellphone at all. Occasionally I try to run close to zero but that's about it and I charge to 100 almost always.

What method do you use when charging yours? How do you stop battery at 90 percent?

I have a gain on the way and I am inclined to just charge at end of ride and u plug for next ride but I'd like to read up on it some more.

 

[Solom01]

There are multiple threads on this topic here, but a good place to start is at the Grin Technologies web site. I'm sure you're aware of the battery wear issues on iPhones, it ended up with a class action lawsuit. Newer versions of ios slow the charging speed by default when it gets to 80% by default. If you change your phone every year or so you may not notice it, but you will notice a shorter battery life if you keep them much longer. I'm not too concerned about it, but I'd rather not spend $900 to replace a battery after 2 years so I don't recharge until it gets to 40-50%, never charge above 90% unless I plan to ride immediately afterwards and never let it get below 20%. I live in Florida where it's super hot so I keep the bike inside since extremely hot or cold temperatures will also hurt the battery. Since I use the eBikemotion app it shows the charge percentage so it's easy to tell what the charge is. I also have the extended battery which I use whenever I'm going to ride over 30 miles since that allows me to not let the main battery charge get too low. Lithium batteries don't have a memory effect like the old nicad batteries did, but they degrade over time and charging speed/temperature/how much you charge still make a huge difference. Heck, let your bike go down to 0% and store it over the winter without recharging and you'll be lucky if you can get it to charge afterwards. In my particular case it's not so much the money and bother but the incredible waste created by electronic waste. I'm not a green nut, but just a few images of kids in foreign countries breaking down the tons of electronic waste we create every year has almost made me go back to a normal bike.

 

[Patsymack]

Hi all just want to check in with my experience with my gain .I received my 2019 M20I last wednesday and have 4 rides so far.I love it does just what I expected of it.
My back ground -I'm 71 have some orthopedic issues.I like to do group rides.I winter in FL and ride with a B group 19-21mph avg for 25-30 miles 4days aweek. and do fine on the flats.All in I come home with a 17mph avg.
When I come north to PA I ride with a younger group and when the road tilts up I get dropped and it ends in a series of regroups.The group says there fine with that but I know it can be annoying.On those rides with 1500' or so of climbing I come back with a 14-15 avg..
my first ride was the day I got the bike.
23 miles 1168 ' climbing 16.1 avg used the battery sparingly but tried out all levels had 80% left at end of ride.
2nd ride 24 mile 950' of climbing 14.6 avg hardly used battery at all but did use did us level on a couple of hills
used 15% battery.
3rd ride 65 miles 3200' climbing 15.5 avg had 70% battery left had a slight tail wind used level 1 on a few climbs had it mostly shut off.
4th ride 41 miles 2638' climbing avg 14.8 battery 48%left used level1for the whole ride and level 3 for a steep climb.
I'm very happy with the bike I'm 6'1.5 34.5 " in seam I got the xl from Jenson on closeout for $3700 shipped.
Love the DI2 and 28mm tires on the flat I can hardly tell the difference from my caad 10.
I left the bike as set as is the stem is way long and I need to change the head spacers around.
The seat is one bad point I'm used to my Brooks on my other bike so I'll change that.
Like I said it is just what I need if I want all the work done for me I'll ride my motorcycle.
The motor is very quiet .

 

[Captain Slow]

Your Florida ride goes at an average of 19-21 mph, but you come home with a 17 mph average? I'm sure there's a simple explanation, but curious.

 

[Patsymack]

Your Florida ride goes at an average of 19-21 mph, but you come home with a 17 mph average? I'm sure there's a simple explanation, but curious.

yea we roll at19-21 but with stops and starts at stop signs and red lights it brings the avg down.

 

[Pemberton]

Hi

How long (time/distance) is your Orbea Gain battery lasting?

I've done three almost flat test rides of 40km lasting 2 hours on medium assist on my new M20 and my battery drops from full charge all the way down to 20% left. That is no where near enough to tackle some of the Adelaide Hills near where I live in terms of time/distance.

I've read a reviews that stated;
"One 90 minute ride using high power modes on steep hills didn't cause the battery indicator to drop below 75% " -
"The Gain has a range of around 100 km" -
"I managed 93.3km and 1,086m of climbing" -
"Orbea doesn’t make any claims, but many riders say that the battery gets 100+ km of range with juice to spare"

Love the bike and the e-assist but a bit perplexed about the short battery life.

This is a frequent topic. It wholly depends on a number of facts. 1 Truth. 2 Power Levels. 3 Terrain 4 Conditions and Riders Weight. Take with a pinch of salts those who say they get 100 + miles in one charge. If they are their riding the bike with no power and using the battery intermittently. I’m 80 years old ex racing cyclist. Have had my Gain for nearly three years. It’s brilliant. I normally ride on L1/2 with my club mates. L3 when hilly. When new battery range was about 60m. I’ve done about 2.5k miles. Battery range now about 50 because of its age. Bought range extender. Range now 75m +.
hope this helps.

 

[Ncbp911]

I am in Uk and have a Gain D30 2018 model which I have had since May 2019.
I use it for a 15 mile each way commute to work in central London. I usually have it in mid power ( orange mode ). I’ve notice that the battery performance has fallen away pretty significantly recently. Each 30 mile daily return cycle to work would use about 30 - 35% of the battery, so I could easily do two days ( 60 miles ) with about 30% of the battery left. I could risk a third days riding but starting at 30% there would often be nothing left for the last few miles so I would usually recharge it back to 100% after the second day.
Recently the 30 mile ride is using 40-45 % of the battery charge so I am having to recharge it after each 30 mile day.
As the warranty covers the battery for 2 years I got my local dealer to submit a warranty claim to Orbea to see if I could get a replacement battery.
Orbea refused the claim.
There explanation was as follows :

“The bike has done 9000 miles and therefore they would expect the capacity to decrease.
The capacity of the X35 battery to store a charge will be affected over the course of its “service life “
300 charge cycles : 20 % loss of total capacity
800 charge cycles : 40 % loss of capacity
Also regardless of how the battery is used and under ideal conditions of bike use and storage , X35 batteries can lose 5% of their total capacity per year of use.
The capacity depends also on the weight of the user ( 94 kg in my case ) , the orography of the route and the modes used while riding.”

I thought people might be interested in this response from Orbea.
The dealer thinks the cost of a new internal ebikemotion X35 battery is around £650 - £700 so I suspect I will be needing that within a year or so.

Happy cycling

 

[Pemberton]

Just read this posting. I have a Gain M20. It’s almost 3 years old. I am 80. The Gain has been a God send to me and has allowed me to continue with my beloved sport. At present my Internal battery range is 40 miles and with my range extender I get 77 miles. Like you I was wondering about battery life and was getting mixed reports. Also LBS does not seem at all interested. Personally I think Orbea need to get their act together or customers will go elsewhere.
I was told battery replacement is a complex job and takes 6 hrs. I fail to understand this having looked at the You Tube video. It’s a straight forward operation of disconnecting terminals on the top tube and underneath.
Are we being ripped off?

 

[PassoGavia]

I have a 2019 Gain M20i, US version (20mph cut-off speed). I've ridden it just over 9000 miles on just over 500 rides. I would describe the loss of battery capacity as negligible. On identical rides on similar days with the same power levels, I used to go 12 miles before I went under 75% capacity (white to green), now it's 10.5 to 11 miles. So perhaps 10% loss of capacity.

Orbea's technical specs and manuals (which you can find online) consistently note an expected reduction in capacity of 20% after 300 cycles, and 40% after 800. Along with an estimated total life span (service use) of 5 years.

In my case, I have tried to be meticulous in my charging habits. Most notably I charge after every ride, even if I've only used 20% of the capacity. So I've plugged it in 500 times. I don't know if that constitutes a 'charge cycle', as the definition varies. Across 180-200 rides per year, I use more than half of the capacity (green to amber) maybe 50 rides, and more than 75% (amber to red) 20-30 times. And I've only gone into 'limp mode' (flashing red) 10 times in the two and half years I've owned the bike. So I've only rarely deeply discharged the battery.

Overall, I'm very happy with the capacity performance over time and mileage. Most notably, for my most common distances (<25 miles) there is no worry that I'll go into the red, and have any battery anxiety. For longer rides, I have a supplemental battery - my rule of thumb is anything over 40 miles. If the capacity dropped to less than 70% I would get a replacement battery. I view that as 'standard maintenance' for an e-bike. Is the dealer charge a rip-off? Well probably, but even if I only get 800 rides out of my battery that's a dollar a ride, less than the depreciation of the bike.

**Note - it has occurred to me that I'm trusting that the controller is giving me an accurate representation of the remaining capacity. Meaning, when the software says that I've just gone from white to green (below 75% capacity), do I really have 75% left? In the few times most recently that I've crossed below 25% (amber to red), it goes pretty quickly to slow-flash-red (below 15%).