New European & Japanese mid-drives in development

[Dewey]

BrakeForceOne F8.18

Amprio Micro E-Drive

Oeschler Drivematic

Nidec eBIKE system

 

[Dmitri]

Thanks for these links. To be honest, one downfall of most of motor makers is they have a really shitty process when it comes to working with developers. Instead of saying "please please try our stuff, here's a pile of discounts" most of the makers either ignore you completely or drown you in stupid bureacracy.

This kind of explains why Bosch wins such a huge marketshare. They've got a partner (Universal Transmissions, also involved with Gates Carbon Drive) that specifically support small builders. They send you all the documentation and can sell you motors and associated parts in unit quantity. They also make it very clear how to certify your bike. I wish other manufacturers were like this.

 

[Ken M]

I'm not sure if I would consider any of these announcements as innovations but on the surface seem impressive...

Anti-lock braking system for ebikes sounds interesting but its pretty easy to modulate braking force on a light bike compared to a car. My guess is performance results will indicate that ABS bike brakes provide no real world improvement in braking other than a false "emotional" sense of being safer. But people like to feel safer even if they aren't.

Two motor companies announcing integration of a Pinion-like transmission into a mid-drive system (this was something totally expected). The problem is they are gearing up the motor to get torque and then in higher gears are gearing it back down to get faster speeds and lower cadence. In other words, it doesn't solve the problem that mid-drives have which is bad mechanical efficiency at higher speeds. One of these companies brags about app features that you can already get via Strava if you want so my guess is they are just reselling Strava and making it sound like they invented the app. Wow.

Another mid drive company claiming to have 10 levels of assist. Wow, so most riders will not be able to tell the difference between the levels. They brag about what they call a "senior-grade" bike with a "particularly gentle" start. Wow...I didn't know that any of the 250-350 watt mid-drive bikes were freaking out seniors with there incredible power. Again, I guess they are trying to make old people feel like they can be safe on an ebike. Do people in marketing really believe their own BS...this gentle start idea is solving something that is not a problem. .

Expected this one....Nidec, the world's large electric motor manufacturer, is going to manufacture a mid-drive. Another mistake unless the EU can keep ebike assist speeds limited to 25kph/15.5mph forever. I understand the need for trail/path speed limits but this limiting of the bike must be driven by lobbyist for the oil industry (it's not about safety because there is no data on eBike vs traditional bikes showing it's OK to go faster on a traditional bike but assist must be limited to ensure an eBike is safe at fast then 25kph). Who is drinking this koolaid? I fully understand that mid-drives are truly the best configuration for enthusiast mountain bikes but I really ??? that they are best for emobility urban commuting bikes where average speeds are higher (something mid-drives simply are not optimized for).

 

[tomjasz]

Bah! While mid motors fill a need, not everyone needs to deal with the complexity and costs. Newest geared hub motors fill a broader need.

 

[Ken M]

Bah! While mid motors fill a need, not everyone needs to deal with the complexity and costs. Newest geared hub motors fill a broader need.

I think the mid-drive systems are best for mtn eBikes and not so good for urban commute bikes. I actually don't think geared hub motors are all that great for urban commute bikes because the plastic gears are not exactly what I would consider long term reliable (putting plastic gears inside a hot sealed chamber is just not a good design but I'll admit that the typical 5:1 reduction allows a small motor to feel powerful / torque-y) . I prefer the simplicity and robust elegance of direct drive hub motors but to realistically be practical in eBikes they need to be nominally rated to at least 750W.

Note: the ebike companies that are putting say 500W geared hubmotors on some of the urban ebikes are doing so because it sells the bikes and they know the gears will last long enough to get them past the warranty for 99%+ of the buyers and then they get all the service $s from motor/gear replacements over the life of the bike. I don't want to call it a scam, but if it looks like a scam and smells like a scam it's a scam.

I don't want to open the entire speed debate in this string but to enable eBikes to be a truly viable form of transportation in the US and many other countries the assist speeds need to be in the 55kph/35mph range which requires a 1500-2000W direct drive hub motor nominal power capability. This is not exotic technology these days as a 52V / 40A drive system will easily provide the electrical power to a well designed hub motor that will not over-heat (they still should have thermal protection to reduce power to prevent over-heating). I do believe that all eBikes should require rider engagement (ie not just allowed to be ridden under throttle control constantly).

 

[slomoshun]

..... to enable eBikes to be a truly viable form of transportation in the US and many other countries the assist speeds need to be in the 55kph/35mph range which requires a 1500-2000W direct drive hub motor nominal power capability. ....

This isn’t something that keeps me awake at night, but it will be interesting to see how it all settles. If you add power to a Moped, it will become a motorcycle. If you add power assist to a bicycle, at what point does it become a Moped? Via consumer preferences and changing laws, is the eBike destined to morph into a new class of conveyance way outside of the current bicycle format? Already, the developments have created government interference categorizing assisted bicycles and mandating how and where we can ride them. If increasing eBike power will lose us freedoms, then maybe we need to consider putting a cap on watt levels, like Europe and other countries, and focus on developing assist technology to more efficiently rotate a wheel. It never ceases to amaze me what a mid-drive arrangement can do for a bicycle with a mere 250 watts. Having observed consumer product evolution for a long time, it would not surprise me to see Class-3 eBikes spin off into their own market category separate from power-assisted bicycles. That might be a good thing.

 

[tomjasz]

I think the mid-drive systems are best for mtn eBikes and not so good for urban commute bikes. I actually don't think geared hub motors are all that great for urban commute bikes because the plastic gears are not exactly what I would consider long term reliable (putting plastic gears inside a hot sealed chamber is just not a good design but I'll admit that the typical 5:1 reduction allows a small motor to feel powerful / torque-y) . I prefer the simplicity and robust elegance of direct drive hub motors but to realistically be practical in eBikes they need to be nominally rated to at least 750W.

Note: the ebike companies that are putting say 500W geared hubmotors on some of the urban ebikes are doing so because it sells the bikes and they know the gears will last long enough to get them past the warranty for 99%+ of the buyers and then they get all the service $s from motor/gear replacements over the life of the bike. I don't want to call it a scam, but if it looks like a scam and smells like a scam it's a scam.

I don't want to open the entire speed debate in this string but to enable eBikes to be a truly viable form of transportation in the US and many other countries the assist speeds need to be in the 55kph/35mph range which requires a 1500-2000W direct drive hub motor nominal power capability. This is not exotic technology these days as a 52V / 40A drive system will easily provide the electrical power to a well designed hub motor that will not over-heat (they still should have thermal protection to reduce power to prevent over-heating). I do believe that all eBikes should require rider engagement (ie not just allowed to be ridden under throttle control constantly).

Data on plastic gears? Please share? A relatively cheap replacement after thousands of miles is hardly a weak spot. 35 mph exceeds every state and federal statute. BMC, MAC, and others are hardly a scam. Gear drives will definitely out climb any direct drive. Mid drives have become more fad than need for a major part of the market. GD’s are far more reliable than many mid drives. Use the Grin motor review and you’ll quickly find DD’s will overheat LONG before GD motors. Based on actual testing, not opinion.

 

[Dewey]

Amprio moving towards launching in 2021, they are the ebike division of Rheinmetall Automotive https://www.rheinmetall-automotive....tail/news/logical-step-towards-market-launch/