Modeling a Creo 2 motor in a Vado SL 1: Effect on rider power and battery consumption

[Stefan Mikes]

Good reading

 

[BioWheel]

I fail to see the difference between gravel and road bikes. That said - my VadoSL seems to handle any surface with aplomb.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Good reading

Thanks, learned some details I didn't know. So where does the idea of an "all-road" bike fit in?

The article defines 2 ends of a spectrum. For my own riding, I'm more interested in the bikes in between, hybrids of these. And I don't seem to be alone in that.

Whatever its designers intended, the Creo 2 looks like a hybrid to me — and a very tempting one from everything I've seen. If my neck could still hack drop bars, I would certainly have tested the Carbon Comp with intent to buy.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

...my VadoSL seems to handle any surface with aplomb

With hybrid tubeless tires (Pathfinder Pros), mine also handles any offroad I'm brave enough to throw at it. That includes most dirt and gravel roads, selected single tracks, and low-tide beach sand.

But as a guy who no longer bounces well at 76, I no longer do ruts, roots, and rock gardens. No offroad descents too steep for the tires, either.

Not sure how far a skilled rider/outfitter could push the SL 1 toward full gravel bike capability — wherever that line lies.

 

[BlackHand]

Regardless of what some may assert there is no official definition of gravel bike or even all road etc. Just shared overlapping characteristics that the bike brands use to apply a marketing category to. Also these 'definitions' blur and shift with time. How many gravel bikes in 2020 came with dropper posts? Now that has been put forth as a defining feature in 2025.

All road typically would mean endurance bike geometry with wider tire clearance. But usually not as wide as you would see on a gravel bike

For instance my bike officially takes up to 40mm tires(probably 42's depending on the tire profile) but is otherwise pretty much standard endurance geometry just a little stretched out since it's an ebike. Same seat and head tube angles as the Creo2 and about the same wheelbase and trail BTW. Really the two major differences are the much greater tire clearance on the Creo2 and a taller seat tube (therefore flatter top tube) on my bike which precludes a dropper post or any way for me to easily get down low off the back of the saddle on steep descents.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Regardless of what some may assert there is no official definition of gravel bike or even all road etc. Just shared overlapping characteristics that the bike brands use to apply a marketing category to. Also these 'definitions' blur and shift with time. How many gravel bikes in 2020 came with dropper posts? Now that has been put forth as a defining feature in 2025.

All road typically would mean endurance bike geometry with wider tire clearance. But usually not as wide as you would see on a gravel bike

For instance my bike officially takes up to 40mm tires(probably 42's depending on the tire profile) but is otherwise pretty much standard endurance geometry just a little stretched out since it's an ebike. Same seat and head tube angles as the Creo2 and about the same wheelbase and trail BTW. Really the two major differences are the much greater tire clearance on the Creo2 and a taller seat tube (therefore flatter top tube) on my bike which precludes a dropper post or any way for me to easily get down low off the back of the saddle on steep descents.

Very interesting. Wonder how much my Vado SL 1 frame deviates from endurance geometry?

 

[BlackHand]

Have you explored bike insights?

Compare: 2024 Giant Bicycles Defy Advanced SL 0 Base ML vs 2023 Specialized Bicycles Turbo Vado SL 4.0 Base L

Find your ideal bike using bike-on-bike geometry comparisons with diagrams, powerful search tools, and category analysis.

bikeinsights.com

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

Have you explored bike insights?

Compare: 2024 Giant Bicycles Defy Advanced SL 0 Base ML vs 2023 Specialized Bicycles Turbo Vado SL 4.0 Base L

Find your ideal bike using bike-on-bike geometry comparisons with diagrams, powerful search tools, and category analysis.

bikeinsights.com

Cool! I've seen those geometry comparisons before — e.g., from @mschwett — but had no idea where they came from.

Does that Giant bike have endurance geometry?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Thanks, learned some details I didn't know. So where does the idea of an "all-road" bike fit in?

An article from Bike Radar. For some, Specialized Crux could be the one. Have you noticed two facts in the Cycling Weekly article?

• Try joining a peloton of your roadie buddies on a gravel bike, and you are outgunned
• Gravel bikes range from lightweight and fast racing machines to heavier and durable bike-packing beasts with anything between them. For instance, a friend of mine owns a Marin Headlands 2 (carbon) that he intends to use for gravel races, and a heavier Marin Four Corners (steel) he uses for bike-packing.

Gravel races are organized in 50, 100, 200, 300... mile formats, so an appropriate bike has to be selected to serve the purpose. Being self-sufficient is the key there.

With hybrid tubeless tires (Pathfinder Pros), mine also handles any offroad I'm brave enough to throw at it. That includes most dirt and gravel roads, selected single tracks, and low-tide beach sand.

You should see gravel racers in action to understand the importance of the equipment. I often see a 'herd of horses' on gravel group rides. Fancy there is a long stretch of a deep sand road. While you are fighting for your dear life and even walk the bike, the 'horses' overtake you at a very high speed with a SWOOSH! as if they were flying! We can discuss our recreational needs and say (as BioWheel said) a bike such as Vado SL could do any surface but again none of us is a racer (despite me taking part in gravel races).

I've seen those geometry comparisons before

First of all: a flat handlebar bike has a different geometry from a drop bar one. There's nothing to compare.

Both bikes are Specialized Diverge, the same model year, the same size. The EVO was a flat handlebar bike, a regular Diverge is a drop handlebar bike.

For anyone interested, I recommend watching some videos of Global Cycling Network GCN with the "gravel" in the search string

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

View attachment 192042
An article from Bike Radar. For some, Specialized Crux could be the one. Have you noticed two facts in the Cycling Weekly article?

• Try joining a peloton of your roadie buddies on a gravel bike, and you are outgunned
• Gravel bikes range from lightweight and fast racing machines to heavier and durable bike-packing beasts with anything between them. For instance, a friend of mine owns a Marin Headlands 2 (carbon) that he intends to use for gravel races, and a heavier Marin Four Corners (steel) he uses for bike-packing.

Gravel races are organized in 50, 100, 200, 300... mile formats, so an appropriate bike has to be selected to serve the purpose. Being self-sufficient is the key there.


You should see gravel racers in action to understand the importance of the equipment. I often see a 'pack of horses' on gravel group rides. Fancy there is a long stretch of a deep sand road. While you are fighting for your dear life and even walk the bike, the 'horses' overtake you at a very high speed with a SWOOSH! as if they were flying! We can discuss our recreational needs and say (as BioWheel said) a bike such as Vado SL could do any surface but again none of us is a racer (despite me taking part in gravel races).


First of all: a flat handlebar bike has a different geometry from a drop bar one. There's nothing to compare.

View attachment 192043
Both bikes are Specialized Diverge, the same model year, the same size. The EVO was a flat handlebar bike, a regular Diverge is a drop handlebar bike.

For anyone interested, I recommend watching some videos of Global Cycling Network GCN with the "gravel" in the search string

I fully understand that pure road and pure gravel bikes differ in ways that matter to racers and other serious riders devoted to these disciplines. Wouldn't have expected anything else.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

There are two inspiring examples demonstrating you can actually ride any bike in a reasonably difficult terrain:

I like riding with a senior man by name Krzysiek. He is all about vintage road bikes, these with shifters on the downtube and very skinny tyres. We do not ride very fast together. I asked my mate if he had any issues with riding "Mazovian Gravel" type of trails...

...to which he smiled and said: "I can ride any terrain unless it is sand. Then I have to walk my bike"

There is a racer by name Cezary U. who is a Top 10 rider (at least in Mazovia). He started in the first edition of Mazovian Gravel (550 km or 341.8 mi) with no idea what gravel cycling was. He rode a Specialized Roubaix on 33 mm tyres. He came in the second place in gross time of 23 hours and 23 minutes. The winner arrived at the finish line an hour and half before Cezary. Cezary learned the lesson and brought a proper gravel bike next year (then he came fourth as the competition got better). Since the 2021 race, people banter "What tires (this time)?"