mid-drive torque-sensing FS options

[rtp]

If you're handy with tools etc give melody a shout at dengfu, e22 might be of interest.... you could potentially DIY in 6 weeks if you can get parts together.

AFAIK, E22 is sold for Shimano only at least in the US due to vendor lock-in on that frame, no?

 

[AHicks]

I think right now, if geared hubs were not in play, it might be a BBSHD for me (assuming I could find a UART based motor). All the necessary power, and they are QUIET. That's the downside of a UART Ultra. That incessant growl they run with is something I would not miss a bit on the next bike. So that leaves the question, all else being equal, is having the torque sensing worth the growl?

Though I have no experience with them, I heard the M600 motor does the same?

I'm going back and forth right now between a MAC 12t geared hub and the Ultra powered bike. Ultra is scattered/on the bench right now getting it's 27.5 wheel conversion finished up (hopefully yet this week). I ride daily, so that's left me on the MAC powered bike recently. Pretty similar in power for my needs (over the top actually), but one is silent, the other growls. You do sort of get used to the growling, until you get on a silent bike. Leaves me with mixed emotions that seem to change frequently..... -Al

 

[rtp]

I think right now, if geared hubs were not in play, it might be a BBSHD for me (assuming I could find a UART based motor). All the necessary power, and they are QUIET. That's the downside of a UART Ultra. That incessant growl they run with is something I would not miss a bit on the next bike. So that leaves the question, all else being equal, is having the torque sensing worth the growl?

Though I have no experience with them, I heard the M600 motor does the same?

I'm going back and forth right now between a MAC 12t geared hub and the Ultra powered bike. Ultra is scattered/on the bench right now getting it's 27.5 wheel conversion finished up (hopefully yet this week). I ride daily, so that's left me on the MAC powered bike recently. Pretty similar in power for my needs (over the top actually), but one is silent, the other growls. You do sort of get used to the growling, until you get on a silent bike. Leaves me with mixed emotions that seem to change frequently..... -Al

on the 'growling bike' comment...
Hard to say with the M600 - seems to be a less popular motor in the US, plus the supply chain blues. I think there's been a few revisions, but Bafang.. so difficult to guess. I thought I saw somewhere where they re-cut the internal gears and numerous people saying it's not bad, but - who knows??

Luna made the 'silent gear' available with the X1 M600, so certainly it was a 'whiner' a few years back, just hard to know about motors shipping now.

I did hear back from Biktrix - all Biktrix Monte bikes will be CANBUS, so for me, priced high for what it is AND it's CANBUS. For that $, I like the frame (locked by them in US) but locked CANBUS Ultra and so-so components, back at Alibaba bike or build it it seems.

 

[Catalyzt]

I'm really, really trying not to be that noob guy who knows just enough to be dangerous and posts incessantly about how great his bike is...

...but that's not working out for me real well right now, so instead, I'll just implore you to take what I'm saying with MANY grains of salt and try to keep it short.

I'm 6'1", 145 pounds and 63 years old, but I also wanted a bike for very mixed road and trail applications, and I really wanted it to be 50 lbs or less. It's really interesting that the Nireeka Nyx and Moto HAL M600 are on your list, because the Nireeka Homie and Motobecane Ultra e-Adventure were on mine. (I REALLY didn't want to spend a lot of money, my budget was very tight last year.)

I'm still crazy about the Moto. The Ultra e-Adventure is really underpowered-- you would definitely want the M600 (or the eBoost Pro, if you weren't set on Bafang-- and note that the Pro is in stock and on sale right now) but I got it down to 46 pounds, and the bonus is that in order to enjoy it, I kinda had to get ripped. I'm glad I did-- I also body board, conditions have been really dangerous recently, I had a terrible wipeout last weekend, and being in such good shape physically (for a guy my age) really helped me avoid serious injury.

Curious as to why the controller and CANBUS are important to you, because there our priorities diverge-- all I care about is reliability and for the power delivery to be reasonable-- crap, my E5000 has only three levels of assist, but I seriously don't care. I rode an 80 nM mid-drive this summer, and it was a blast, but I'm not ready for that much assistance yet, and as long as I can climb 3,000-4,500 feet in a 30-35 mile ride, I don't care too much about the rest.

The thing that a lot of people seem to like about the HAL frames-- and there are several variations, so YMMV-- is that they are so stable, and seem crazy fast going downhill if you have the right tires for your conditions. The small pool of people who own HAL Motos really swear by them-- they just don't seem to have a lot of problems, a lot of bike for the money.

 

[AHicks]

I'm really, really trying not to be that noob guy who knows just enough to be dangerous and posts incessantly about how great his bike is...

...but that's not working out for me real well right now, so instead, I'll just implore you to take what I'm saying with MANY grains of salt and try to keep it short.

I'm 6'1", 145 pounds and 63 years old, but I also wanted a bike for very mixed road and trail applications, and I really wanted it to be 50 lbs or less. It's really interesting that the Nireeka Nyx and Moto HAL M600 are on your list, because the Nireeka Homie and Motobecane Ultra e-Adventure were on mine. (I REALLY didn't want to spend a lot of money, my budget was very tight last year.)

I'm still crazy about the Moto. The Ultra e-Adventure is really underpowered-- you would definitely want the M600 (or the eBoost Pro, if you weren't set on Bafang-- and note that the Pro is in stock and on sale right now) but I got it down to 46 pounds, and the bonus is that in order to enjoy it, I kinda had to get ripped. I'm glad I did-- I also body board, conditions have been really dangerous recently, I had a terrible wipeout last weekend, and being in such good shape physically (for a guy my age) really helped me avoid serious injury.

Curious as to why the controller and CANBUS are important to you, because there our priorities diverge-- all I care about is reliability and for the power delivery to be reasonable-- crap, my E5000 has only three levels of assist, but I seriously don't care. I rode an 80 nM mid-drive this summer, and it was a blast, but I'm not ready for that much assistance yet, and as long as I can climb 3,000-4,500 feet in a 30-35 mile ride, I don't care too much about the rest.

The thing that a lot of people seem to like about the HAL frames-- and there are several variations, so YMMV-- is that they are so stable, and seem crazy fast going downhill if you have the right tires for your conditions. The small pool of people who own HAL Motos really swear by them-- they just don't seem to have a lot of problems, a lot of bike for the money.

Speaking for myself? Spoiled is the single word that comes to mind. From 2 standpoints. The first being because at more than twice your weight, I prefer quite a bit more power than what you are used to. The second is the refinement available with the controllers I'm using. I've seen what the UART based Ultra controller is capable of, with the power based KT controller bested only by the fact that the Ultra has torque assist while the KT powered MAC 12t does not.

Regarding controller refinement, I like comparing controllers to a keyboard and mouse. They're the interface between the motor and the rider, like a keyboard and mouse is to a computer. The nicest, fastest, most powerful computer available will feel like something out of a crackerjax box if you are forced to use a 10 dollar keyboard and a 5 dollar mouse to access it's power. It's not until you toss the mickey mouse keyboard and mouse and replace them with something more refined/higher quality that you begin to appreciate what the computer has to offer.... -Al

 

[rtp]

I'm really, really trying not to be that noob guy who knows just enough to be dangerous and posts incessantly about how great his bike is...

...but that's not working out for me real well right now, so instead, I'll just implore you to take what I'm saying with MANY grains of salt and try to keep it short.

I'm 6'1", 145 pounds and 63 years old, but I also wanted a bike for very mixed road and trail applications, and I really wanted it to be 50 lbs or less. It's really interesting that the Nireeka Nyx and Moto HAL M600 are on your list, because the Nireeka Homie and Motobecane Ultra e-Adventure were on mine. (I REALLY didn't want to spend a lot of money, my budget was very tight last year.)

I'm still crazy about the Moto. The Ultra e-Adventure is really underpowered-- you would definitely want the M600 (or the eBoost Pro, if you weren't set on Bafang-- and note that the Pro is in stock and on sale right now) but I got it down to 46 pounds, and the bonus is that in order to enjoy it, I kinda had to get ripped. I'm glad I did-- I also body board, conditions have been really dangerous recently, I had a terrible wipeout last weekend, and being in such good shape physically (for a guy my age) really helped me avoid serious injury.

Curious as to why the controller and CANBUS are important to you, because there our priorities diverge-- all I care about is reliability and for the power delivery to be reasonable-- crap, my E5000 has only three levels of assist, but I seriously don't care. I rode an 80 nM mid-drive this summer, and it was a blast, but I'm not ready for that much assistance yet, and as long as I can climb 3,000-4,500 feet in a 30-35 mile ride, I don't care too much about the rest.

The thing that a lot of people seem to like about the HAL frames-- and there are several variations, so YMMV-- is that they are so stable, and seem crazy fast going downhill if you have the right tires for your conditions. The small pool of people who own HAL Motos really swear by them-- they just don't seem to have a lot of problems, a lot of bike for the money.

Thanks for the response.

The Motobecane HAL eBoost seems a decent overall system at a reasonable-ish price. In the US using for both on and off-road use, the eBoost HAL bikes with e.g. Shimano are almost tempting other than their limits on power assist, and their overall power. Their M600 variant uses a Bafang 43v battery instead of ‘US standard’ of 48-52V…without knowing if the controllers are changed in some way (higher current), Power (Watts) = I (current) * E(Volts), so I’d expect the 43v variants to perform under the 48v ones. That bike is still somewhat tempting to be honest.

The eBoost Pro Shimano is still a 250W, which I’d say is still underpowered. As you said, in order to ride it well, you had to get ripped. I’d consider that one a longer-term goal right now - add 80# or so to your weight, and too much office chair time - I want exercise but also want to knock out 20+ mile rides with my wife according to my current fitness level. This is actually one of the reasons I’m leaning towards ‘down-sizing’ from an Ultra to the M600, actually, and also tied to the CANBUS mess. CANBUS removes the ability to otherwise program the Bafang motors, which could otherwise be limited in power via programming for each assistance level. Inevitably someone will crack their protocol, or with enough time alternate controllers will become available, but until then we’re somewhat limited to <whatever they give you>. So, hopefully current gen M600 programming isn’t too bad and I can find something workable in the PAS 2-3 levels while drawing less power (and saving weight) over the Ultra.

I could see at some point considering something with a Brose or other motor in it, but not for the prices of a Specialized and the nominal 250W. It’s possible I change my mind on that one over time as well as I get in better shape, but it’s difficult to deal with that level of restriction on power and the hard-limit of 20mph, as we regularly go over that one every road portion of our rides. If the eBoost Pro HAL Shimano (or other motor) were 500W nominal and peaked closer to 1kW AND weren’t speed assist limited - I would seriously consider one. As it is, the eBoost M600 is still somewhat in the running but not sure what I think on the 43v as I’ll already be downgrading in power vs the current BBHSD…

 

[rtp]

Speaking for myself? Spoiled is the single word that comes to mind. From 2 standpoints. The first being because at more than twice your weight, I prefer quite a bit more power than what you are used to.

Yep, there’s definitely a level of ‘we want what we want’ in there somewhere too.

Regarding controller refinement, I like comparing controllers to a keyboard and mouse. They're the interface between the motor and the rider, like a keyboard and mouse is to a computer. The nicest, fastest, most powerful computer available will feel like something out of a crackerjax box if you are forced to use a 10 dollar keyboard and a 5 dollar mouse to access it's power. It's not until you toss the mickey mouse keyboard and mouse and replace them with something more refined/higher quality that you begin to appreciate what the computer has to offer.... -Al

For completely off-topic amusement, here’s my keyboard https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
2 of ‘em for that matter, not that in shutdown I need the second ‘in the office’ one.

I’ve replaced and programmed several car ECUs in the past, and have no issues paying for a better controller, but sadly Innotrace won’t take our US $ while WW may be a while catching up on bikes, there is no reasonable replacement controller for the M600 other than possibly a Phaserunner (also unobtainium) at the moment, etc.

I’m definitely curious where we’ll be in a few more years though, with the EU motor manufacturers and Shimano AFAIK opening up tuning profiles to end users, while it seems Bafang is going in the other direction - hopefully it all eventually leads to us/consumers winning in the end.

 

[Cstefan]

Have you considered getting a good light FS frame and using the Tongsheng TSDZ2 to do a conversion? The wattage is somewhat limited compared to the Ultra but not as much as with Bosch/Brose/Shimano mid-drives.

 

[AHicks]

<<<So, hopefully current gen M600 programming isn’t too bad and I can find something workable in the PAS 2-3 levels while drawing less power (and saving weight) over the Ultra.>>>

Experience has shown me that in the lower power levels (PAS 2-3), the M600 won't be much different than an Ultra. 3-500w of power won't make much difference which motor is drawing it. The Ultra wouldn't be showing it's "stuff" until it's at higher levels (1000w+), and while demonstrating it's "torque monster" abilities to accelerate from a stop in 5th or 6th gear (like the BBSHD can do). I don't know what the difference in weight is between them, but I'm thinking that would be the only advantage the M600 has over an Ultra in PAS 2-3.

The other question comes up though, regarding how much power do you need? Is it about enough to put a grin on your face, or do you really need the bigger motor for occasional challenges - like that nasty hill on one of your favorite riding routes? If it were not for those challenges, I doubt I'd be on an Ultra, and even the need for a mid drive might be in question. I have a 55lb 500w hub driven city bike I just finished (a cruiser) that's never going to be challenged by a big hill. Mostly because the area it's normally ridden in doesn't have any of those, and it might be my favorite bike! You take a 500w motor and feed it 1000w for a few seconds (using a KT controller for instance), and they get downright "sporty"! You have plenty of power to cross that busy road with confidence, catch up with a riding partner, or crest that little hill that only takes a few seconds to climb. Point being, right bike for the mission at hand can be a big factor as well. A generic bike that must do everything well doesn't exist! -Al

 

[Catalyzt]

Yep, there’s definitely a level of ‘we want what we want’ in there somewhere too.

I get what you're saying. These things are partly a matter of taste, and I feel strongly about them, too-- particularly keyboards.

I am a study in contradictions in terms of what I prefer in tech or mechanical UI, a combination of a terrible luddite and cutting edge. I love the electronic fuel-injection on my MX5 (and being able to get 38-40 MPG at 80 MPH) but if I could spend $1,500 to replace the electric windows with hand cranks, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

Speaking of keyboards, it drives me crazy that you get a phone with a normal operating system that has a physical keyboard. Lots of people want these, but the market decides what we are allowed to have, supply and demand doesn't have that much to do with it. Trying to type on glass kind of symbolizes everything that went wrong in the 21st century!

It IS inconsistent that I really don't care about controller refinements and I feel that I can manage any refinement with just gears and muscle-- but I will spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars tweaking obscure parameters in my guitar sound, even though I only play a half dozen shows a year!

 

[rtp]

Have you considered getting a good light FS frame and using the Tongsheng TSDZ2 to do a conversion? The wattage is somewhat limited compared to the Ultra but not as much as with Bosch/Brose/Shimano mid-drives.

Love the fact there’s open source firmware for it, but also considering the reliability factor. Seems decent overall but not in current plan - I need this one to be reliable, and may consider something like this or Cyc Stealth in the future. Good callout and had done a fair amount of reading on the TSD unit, just not for this one..

 

[rtp]

<<<So, hopefully current gen M600 programming isn’t too bad and I can find something workable in the PAS 2-3 levels while drawing less power (and saving weight) over the Ultra.>>>

Experience has shown me that in the lower power levels (PAS 2-3), the M600 won't be much different than an Ultra. 3-500w of power won't make much difference which motor is drawing it. The Ultra wouldn't be showing it's "stuff" until it's at higher levels (1000w+), and while demonstrating it's "torque monster" abilities to accelerate from a stop in 5th or 6th gear (like the BBSHD can do). I don't know what the difference in weight is between them, but I'm thinking that would be the only advantage the M600 has over an Ultra in PAS 2-3.

Good point - a Watt is indeed a Watt.
I sure wish there were a Bafang wiki or post showing CAN Ultra and M600 power levels, even if just peak by level. I’d expect the M600 to still peak lower for lower levels but cant really confirm it either.

The M600 is ~8.5lbs vs ~11.5lb per Bafang anyways. It’s possible but tough to confirm with real numbers some Ultra frames are heavier, possibly overbuilt. It’s been a nightmare trying to get real weights on even the CF frames or on some of the bikes. Hydra and Biktrix Monte are ~60# in CF, may see if there’s a confirmed weight on the Luna X1 somewhere, as there aren’t many other component differences…

The other question comes up though, regarding how much power do you need? Is it about enough to put a grin on your face, or do you really need the bigger motor for occasional challenges - like that nasty hill on one of your favorite riding routes? If it were not for those challenges, I doubt I'd be on an Ultra, and even the need for a mid drive might be in question. I have a 55lb 500w hub driven city bike I just finished (a cruiser) that's never going to be challenged by a big hill. Mostly because the area it's normally ridden in doesn't have any of those, and it might be my favorite bike! You take a 500w motor and feed it 1000w for a few seconds (using a KT controller for instance), and they get downright "sporty"! You have plenty of power to cross that busy road with confidence, catch up with a riding partner, or crest that little hill that only takes a few seconds to climb. Point being, right bike for the mission at hand can be a big factor as well. A generic bike that must do everything well doesn't exist! -Al

Going to go with conventional shared wisdom here as I don’t want a hub drive off-road, and I’d prefer the mid-drive feel as on my wife’s Bosch.
In my head at least, hub drives are closer to mini-mopeds, great for some things (e.g. where exercise or off-road isn’t the focus), but not all.
How much power is ‘needed’ depends on the individual and use - if I can eventually get an Innotrace/WW or other controller, I’d probably choose the higher power but limit power significantly at most levels.

 

[rtp]

I get what you're saying. These things are partly a matter of taste, and I feel strongly about them, too-- particularly keyboards.

I am a study in contradictions in terms of what I prefer in tech or mechanical UI, a combination of a terrible luddite and cutting edge. I love the electronic fuel-injection on my MX5 (and being able to get 38-40 MPG at 80 MPH) but if I could spend $1,500 to replace the electric windows with hand cranks, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

That’s got to be a magic MX-5 - which gen?
I’ve had ‘a few’ including a 93LE, MSM and others..no NC though - just couldn’t cope with it’s front end/cartoon ‘smile’, but love the ND, assuming the trans lates versions hold up.
The old ‘R’ models sadly are now replaced with some funky options but the ND Club (I think? Don’t like the new designations) is a blast to drive.
I think best I’ve gotten across all of them (mostly modified) was a bit over 25mph…

Speaking of keyboards, it drives me crazy that you get a phone with a normal operating system that has a physical keyboard. Lots of people want these, but the market decides what we are allowed to have, supply and demand doesn't have that much to do with it. Trying to type on glass kind of symbolizes everything that went wrong in the 21st century!

At least Apple ditched Ives and they can stop making ‘thinner at all costs’ now. They replaced the crap tactic butterfly keyboard and ditched touch bar - had halfway expected them to do a glass/flat laptop keyboard to make it another 2mm thinner.

I don’t bother typing much on the phone, and use a kb for my ipad pro as well, but lots are ‘two finger text demons’ who would probably never but a physical kb phone like the old Palms..

It IS inconsistent that I really don't care about controller refinements and I feel that I can manage any refinement with just gears and muscle-- but I will spend dozens of hours and hundreds of dollars tweaking obscure parameters in my guitar sound, even though I only play a half dozen shows a year!

Yet if the bike (or car) behaved ‘oddly’ or ‘not as expected,’ wouldn’t you want to fix it?

 

[AHicks]

Regarding the Ultra powered bike weights, many/most are using the biggest batteries available - which is really going to show up when comparing their weights to an M600 powered bike. Few M600 powered bikes will be using those heavy batteries. Point being, battery size is another priority to consider....

 

[rtp]

In other news - Luna announced the X2 (M600 based) and Z1 (magnesium Ultra UART-based).

Doing some math with current parts prices, I couldn't build the bike even with the parts they selected, for the price - so ordered an X2.... an am hoping their open source software based on VESC is real for the M600.

Realistically, I'm fine with the Yari forks while I would have gone for a 9 or 10s groups and upped to Super Deluxe+ on the rear shock, but overall should be good, assuming their claims on programmability is real. Also interesting as it seems they've been gobbling up UART Ultras for the Z1, as I just couldn't bring myself to buy a CANBUS Ultra at the moment.

Wish me luck!

 

[AHicks]

As mentioned, you pick the bike closest to what that "perfect" bike would look like, ride it for a bit, and start swapping out the pieces that aren't getting the job done for you. Congrats on making your call. Hoping it all works out for you! Best of luck!

Now the hard part. The waiting game REALLY sucks.....

 

[rtp]

As mentioned, you pick the bike closest to what that "perfect" bike would look like, ride it for a bit, and start swapping out the pieces that aren't getting the job done for you. Congrats on making your call. Hoping it all works out for you! Best of luck!

Now the hard part. The waiting game REALLY sucks.....

Thanks! You got that right (the waiting), as well as expecting to do some part swaps.

I'm reasonably confident the 'Ludi v2' won't be the fiasco 'v1'/shunts was as it seems they have a VESC-based controller, looking to be a re-work of one of the available VESC boards, and the same software was used previously for a BBHSD alternate controller, which seems to have worked well.

On the plus side, the Yari fork can be upgraded to a Lyric Ultimate clone, or nearly so, if the need arises, for a few hundred $ (better than e.g. a $1K fork purchase, certainly). I expect I'll replace the rear wheel with a DT Swiss e-bike H1900. Anything else can wait until it's in my hands at least.

 

[Rider777]

A few things- I'm 6'2/315/and 70 but in good health ………….

I’m guessing the “315” or “good health” is a typo as they both can’t go together?

Please excuse the brief off topic YMMV.

 

[AHicks]

I’m guessing the “315” or “good health” is a typo as they both can’t go together?

Please excuse the brief off topic YMMV.

Nope, fair question really. I don't mind. There are a lot of people that make that same assumption (this weight=bad health). In my case your guess would be wrong I'm afraid. My blood tests (done regularly) are all well within the normal range. I have one med I take (one tiny tablet a day) as I'm borderline high blood pressure - like I have been for the last 40 years or so. Now if we were talking "fit", that's different, though clearly I'm very lucky to be as fit as I am for guys my age. Sure, there are some much more fit, but I'm still getting around OK, and I ride daily. Slowing down? Oh hell yes. We're well past prime, but I'm damn sure no invalid. -Al

 

[Catalyzt]

That’s got to be a magic MX-5 - which gen?

Not that magical -- 2016 ND Sport stock -- though I exaggerated slightly. The best I've gotten is 37.8, but that was with some traffic and some a/c, and on Miata.net and other forums, there are credible reports of 40 MPG and even 41. Not bad for a car that gets 0-60 in 5.8 seconds. Mileage is VERY sensitive to a/c, traffic, and driving style... mileage can dip below 30 MPG in heavy traffic if it's over 90-100 degrees out. My last tank was fairly typical-- mostly highway but with several errands around town and spartan use of a/c, it gets 34 and change.

I’ve had ‘a few’ including a 93LE, MSM and others..no NC though - just couldn’t cope with it’s front end/cartoon ‘smile’, but love the ND, assuming the trans lates versions hold up.

I have studied this problem extensively; most of the trannies that blew were both autocrossed and had mods, and were Club or Grand Touring. Very, very few stock 2016 Sports shredded their transmissions-- and believe me, the lovable nerds at Miata.net do have spreadsheets tracking them! The problems in later models, unfortunately, seem to be electronic-- one of many reasons I gravitated towards the bare-bones trim of the MX5 and CRX (which is an HF).

The Moto Ultra e-Adventure is a lot like the CRX HF -- low power, low price, very efficient, exceptional handling. Not everyone's taste, certainly! And I was feeling that today, for sure-- 8.5 miles, 1,300 feet of vertical, steepest grade 10%-- great 35-minute workout (counting only time I am pedaling.)

I am wiped out. I was going to finish off with a quarter mile in the pool, but after I got home, I was like, "Nah-- I don't think so!"

They replaced the crap tactic butterfly keyboard and ditched touch bar - had halfway expected them to do a glass/flat laptop keyboard to make it another 2mm thinner.

Yes, they did, thank God. The M1 Air Keyboard is really pretty decent.

Yet if the bike (or car) behaved ‘oddly’ or ‘not as expected,’ wouldn’t you want to fix it?

Probably, but depends what one means by "odd." I upgraded the struts, air filter, and exhaust of the CRX, but that was it. No mods for the MX-5 so far.