Looking for a powerful mid drive kit.

[Cybersnow]

I have a steel Salsa Fargo with a Bayfang BBSHD and a 52v battery that has been my everyday go to bike for the past sux years. I am told that I rode it way too much on level zero and that has caused me to replace bearings at least once. I have decided to move this setup to my wife’s bike (after a new set of bearings) and look for a more powerful set up. No complaints on the BBSHD except I would like a torque sensor and maybe a little more power. Am open to any suggestions on a reliable mid drive kit.

 

[m@Robertson]

The BBSHD is pretty much the standard for reliability for this kind of DIY motor. Everything else, long term, tends to be more maintenance and less long-lived.

• A Cyclone is certainly more powerful, but way less sophisticated (no pedal assist never mind torque sensing).
• A Cyc X1 Pro is more powerful and has torque sensing, but lacks long term reliability. It has a lot in common with a Cyclone in terms of its use of a secondary and primary chain with a dual freewheel. But that makes it quite noisy by comparison with a BBSxx. I liken an X1 Pro to a Ferrari. Kick ass power but temperamental and needs to be babied in the shop after a solid workout.
• A Cyc X1 Stealth or a Cyc Photon have much less power but have the torque sensor.
• GnG is the parent / predecessor to Cyc and they at least used to make a tarted up Cyclone clone. Same deal though. Its a throttle beast not a pedaling motor.
• ToSeven DM01 and DM02 are brand new in the market and have some nasty teething problems that it will pay to sit out and watch to see if they shake out.
• A Lightning Rods Big Block is going to give you power at levels you won't believe. But its a custom build every time and like a Cyclone you can forget about sophistication.

Personally I think your best bet is a savvy BBSHD build with an aftermarket controller. You can run a BBSHD at 72v and with a properly designed controller, it should run forever. I know you managed to screw yours up, but thats a very rare thing to have done. I'd look to learn to NOT do whatever it was you did to kill it and take advantage of all of the other things that make that platform so widespread.

Why were you riding at Level 0? Are you saying you had pedal assist shut off and were throttling the crap out of it? You were throttling because you hated the Bafang pedal assist settings? Thats easy to understand because they suck, but the solution to that is usually to change the settings so they are more cyclist-oriented and behave nothing like the stock motor. From what I understand, pedaling hard without power breaks the clutch prematurely, but thats a $25 part. I've never been able to break one or wear one out, personally.

 

[Cybersnow]

Actually rode it at zero because I wanted the exercise. I was pretty heavy and wanted to maintain a 15 mph speed, apparently a big mistake. I tend not to use the throttle except to cross a busy street, to mount the bike, or to restart on a climb. My only complaint about theBBSHD is the cadence sensor vs a torque sensor. I will take a closer look the CYC line. My goal is to get a constant 1,500 watt with a peak of about 2,200 watts.

 

[slitespd]

I have a steel Salsa Fargo with a Bayfang BBSHD and a 52v battery that has been my everyday go to bike for the past sux years. I am told that I rode it way too much on level zero and that has caused me to replace bearings at least once. I have decided to move this setup to my wife’s bike (after a new set of bearings) and look for a more powerful set up. No complaints on the BBSHD except I would like a torque sensor and maybe a little more power. Am open to any suggestions on a reliable mid drive kit.

I’m trying to understand the logic in why running at zero power causes excessive bearing wear? It doesn’t seem to me that putting more torque on the spindle/axle would affect the bearings. I too run at zero power quite frequently which now is of concern.

 

[Cybersnow]

I think it might be a couple of things. First that the motor is over about six years old and is in its third bike frame. Second is that it gets ridden a lot on easy single track bike trails, many dirt and gravel roads and I dont have any real idea how many thousands of miles are on the motor. In talking to one of the Bayfang engineers I was told that it was better to ride on one verses zero in terms of bearing wear. Now I have to admit that the BBSHD is still running strong but just not as quiet as it once was. After riding my wife’s new ebike I have to admit that at 78 years old I appreciate using a torque sensor verses a cadence sensor. I realize I might be a little picky here but I intend to keep riding as much as possible and as long as possible.

 

[m@Robertson]

Actually rode it at zero because I wanted the exercise. I was pretty heavy and wanted to maintain a 15 mph speed, apparently a big mistake. I tend not to use the throttle except to cross a busy street, to mount the bike, or to restart on a climb. My only complaint about theBBSHD is the cadence sensor vs a torque sensor. I will take a closer look the CYC line.

The solution to that is to adjust the cadence programming so it can't run away from you, which it does on the factory tune. Then you just dial back the pedal assist to a lower level than what you need to maintain your preferred cadfence level. So you are always expending effort to maintain cadence. Your tuning should allow very little assist, or a whole lot, so you have a range of assist that lets you dial your effort level way up or down as your desires of the moment dictate.

I have to agree with @slitespd's post. I have been building and riding BBSHD'd bikes since 2017, and I am a pedaler, not a throttler. I am a lifelong cyclist, ride for exercise and I started out at around 265 lbs, so I was similarly motivated to work hard. I have never heard of bearing wear for this reason, but I DO know what wear is caused by hard pedaling, and its not the bearings. In fact, bearing wear makes no sense as you are not putting anywhere near the rpms or the torque on the spindle and bearings as the motor does.

I get the feeling you got some bad advice either from a seller who wanted to shift the blame from a defective product, or an internet expert on a forum... who wasn't much of one. Of course, that could be me too. But think through the logic of that argument. Look at the axle+bearing assembly (and the two other bearings built into the casing and motor cover) and try and understand how that mechanism of action is possible. But look at the clutch and picture how it is ordinarily freewheeling internally, until you start torqueing the bejesus out of it, its plastic gears and its three little pawls (and lets remember how three-pawl cassette bodies fare long-term under strong mid drive power).

Here's a very detailed look at the clutch and its replacement.

My goal is to get a constant 1,500 watt with a peak of about 2,200 watts.

To get that power level, and have the motor survive it, you are looking at an X1 Pro. My X1 Pro will happily feed that much power and more (peaks around 4000w), but it can't go that high on pedal assist. I would not expect that motor to do well long-term at those power levels. Also you have to realize no one will ever wonder whether you are riding an ebike due to the noise all motors in this class put out.

FYI by comparison, a 30a BBSHD on a 52v battery is going to peak at over 1700w and will happily provide a steady 1500w continuous output on throttle. My heavier-output tunes give me pedal assist at around 1000w on PAS9 but you can get it up higher than that.

 

[m@Robertson]

I think it might be a couple of things. First that the motor is over about six years old and is in its third bike frame. Second is that it gets ridden a lot on easy single track bike trails, many dirt and gravel roads and I dont have any real idea how many thousands of miles are on the motor. In talking to one of the Bayfang engineers I was told that it was better to ride on one verses zero in terms of bearing wear. Now I have to admit that the BBSHD is still running strong but just not as quiet as it once was. After riding my wife’s new ebike I have to admit that at 78 years old I appreciate using a torque sensor verses a cadence sensor. I realize I might be a little picky here but I intend to keep riding as much as possible and as long as possible.

OK this explains a lot more. If you heard that from a Bafang engineer, then I suppose thats a reliable source. But really what you are describing borders on unique. And the fact its such a well-used motor... that is a level of hard use and longevity you will not get with a competitor's product. ANY product.

Everyone (and I mean everyone) hates the Bafang programming. Especially the pedal assist. If you are a cyclist, you know its garbage. BUT you can change that significantly. So much so that the bike becomes an ideal exercise machine and rides just like an analog bike, but with a little extra oomph. I'm 62 and I have been cycling all my life, and I get the whys and wherefores of the subject. I still ride daily and do so on a cargo bike, as an auto replacement/daily driver. I have a car but I keep it on a battery tender.

Here... spend almost nothing except for a cable to plug into your display. Use these tunes and if you are using stock programming, you will not recognize the pedal assist behavior of the motor. Try the 'flat land' tune first. It peaks at 450w. Yes I know thats well under what you are asking for. Use it just to establish where the floor is. Then do the hill climb version.

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist (2023 Update)

Explore enhanced BBSHD programming for pedal assist settings that don't let the bike run away from you, and throttle settings gentle on the drivetrain.

talesontwowheels.com

You can bump the power a bit higher, but to get to peak and continuous power levels like you are asking for, you will graduate into a service interval spanning weeks, not years on both your motor and drivetrain.

 

[Cybersnow]

m@Robertson: Thanks for your info. You now have me rethinking all of this. I was pretty happy with my hardtail and BBSHD until my wife bought me a Zen Photon Ultra for my birthday. It has a Bafang M620 motor with a torque sensor and rides great until it is time to transport it to a different area to ride. The bike’s weight is close to 80lbs and is a pain to load and unload. My Fargo on the other hand is only about 50 lbs and much easier to lift on and off the rack. One thing I did notice on the Zen is that it has a torque sensor and on a steep climb the display shows up to 1500 watts being output from the motor ( in the pedaling mode).

Am I understanding correctly that the high wattage being advertised by CRC only applies in the throttle mode? I was thinking of going with the CRC larger motor but with the large 52v battery, but it sounds like (besides the loud noise) it wont give me the extra boost in pedal mode as I dont want a motor scooter.

Is there a way to tune the BBSHD to increase the power available on level 9? I rode the bike up a steep hill yesterday and the display never got to 1,000 watts. Maybe the answer is to just buy a new kit from Luna Cycle or buy a bike frame designed to run an M620 and strip the Fargo and Zen ad build a new bike (sounds a lot harder than the new kit).

What would you reccomend? I see that you a answered while I was typing, thanks will read this now.

 

[Cybersnow]

OK this explains a lot more. If you heard that from a Bafang engineer, then I suppose thats a reliable source. But really what you are describing borders on unique. And the fact its such a well-used motor... that is a level of hard use and longevity you will not get with a competitor's product. ANY product.

Everyone (and I mean everyone) hates the Bafang programming. Especially the pedal assist. If you are a cyclist, you know its garbage. BUT you can change that significantly. So much so that the bike becomes an ideal exercise machine and rides just like an analog bike, but with a little extra oomph. I'm 62 and I have been cycling all my life, and I get the whys and wherefores of the subject. I still ride daily and do so on a cargo bike, as an auto replacement/daily driver. I have a car but I keep it on a battery tender.

Here... spend almost nothing except for a cable to plug into your display. Use these tunes and if you are using stock programming, you will not recognize the pedal assist behavior of the motor. Try the 'flat land' tune first. It peaks at 450w. Yes I know thats well under what you are asking for. Use it just to establish where the floor is. Then do the hill climb version.

BBSHD Programming For The Pedaling Cyclist (2023 Update)

Explore enhanced BBSHD programming for pedal assist settings that don't let the bike run away from you, and throttle settings gentle on the drivetrain.

talesontwowheels.com

You can bump the power a bit higher, but to get to peak and continuous power levels like you are asking for, you will graduate into a service interval spanning weeks, not years on both your motor and drivet

While I am a bit hesitant to start tweaking my BBSHD, I am willing to give it a try. First step is to order a new kit and tuning box from Luna Cycle. I have an Apple iPhone, is there an equivalent IOS version of speeed? Also, should I order the larger 52 volt battery?

 

[m@Robertson]

I haven't been talking about built-in motors like the M620 because those are found only on bikes with bespoke frames. Bear in mind the M620 has exactly the same torque rating as the BBSHD. 160 Nm. Its torque that matters, not watts in terms of your to-the-wheels result. However, 160 Nm is the lab result, not the dyno result. Check this out. You will need to do some research to see what motors are being tested on some of these:

Dyno Testing Ebikes and more!

Electric Bike Dyno Testing

area13ebikes.com

Its all going to muddy the waters considerably in terms of figuring out which motor is more powerful. I personally would not focus so hard on that. You are already getting into things like bike weight as a factor. Here's some more mud to cloud things. This is my 29er enduro, a Guerilla Gravity Smash with a Cyc X1 Pro and an ERT custom BAC800 controller. I was running about 40 mph and the display was showing 4000w when I chickened out on a high speed run. This little motor is insanely powerful for its size (rpms can get up past 10000 with the right battery).

I built this bike a couple of years later. Just a 30a/52v Luna BBSHD. 26" wheels. Small and lightweight. This bike by far is my favorite off roader and short range bike. Not because of power but because it is small, lightweight, nimble and easy to pick up and pack into the car. The BBSHD with its 40T front ring and 46T big cog in back can pop the front wheel up no problem and I am still over 200 lbs.

So... MORE than enough power and I used gearing to my advantage to make that bike plenty-powerful for singletrack. No need to go up into power levels that will break stuff. I used steel cassette cluster and steel cassette body to ensure longevity.

 

[m@Robertson]

... One thing I did notice on the Zen is that it has a torque sensor and on a steep climb the display shows up to 1500 watts being output from the motor ( in the pedaling mode).

That could be all tuning. A 30a Luna BBSHD with a 52v battery works out to 58.8v x 30a = 1764w. With a 48v battery its 54.6v x 30a = 1638w. These are measurements at 100% battery charge so thats only a peak, but still you get the idea as to the motor's happy place.

Am I understanding correctly that the high wattage being advertised by CRC only applies in the throttle mode? I was thinking of going with the CRC larger motor but with the large 52v battery, but it sounds like (besides the loud noise) it wont give me the extra boost in pedal mode as I dont want a motor scooter.

You will have quite a bit of leeway to program a Cyc motor. I did an aftermarket controller because Cyc at the time had so many problems with their in-house controllers I knew enough to not even try to use one. But since then they have changed that completely. You need to be completely comfortable with working on those motors, and digging deep into their software. You won't find the kind of tutorials you will for a BBSxx but you should from the get-go join the Cyc Owners Group on Facebook, which is where all of your community support is going to come from.

Is there a way to tune the BBSHD to increase the power available on level 9? I rode the bike up a steep hill yesterday and the display never got to 1,000 watts.

Almost certainly yes. But first, a lot of displays just plain don't go higher than 1000w. I no longer use the DPC18 or the 860C, which were my favorites. The newer ones don't go as high. Probably for liability reasons.

Maybe the answer is to just buy a new kit from Luna Cycle or buy a bike frame designed to run an M620 and strip the Fargo and Zen ad build a new bike (sounds a lot harder than the new kit).

'Programming' the motor is common practice (its not programming, its just a settings interface accessed via GUI). With that said, some sellers (other than Luna) hobble their motors to the point where the very commonly used settings interface cannot bump them up properly. For example, newer motors rated for 52v sold by California Ebike are locked out of going higher than 28a. Luna motors are my personal preference and I have I think 9 of them bought starting in 2017 until as recently as 2023.

In terms of how hard it is to build a new bike, I covered that here . Covers every aspect of the BBSHD install and then some.

How To Build An Ebike From Scratch

You want to build an ebike, but the project seems overwhelming. Lets de-mystify the entire process, including planning, parts and perfecting the end result.

talesontwowheels.com

What would you reccomend? I see that you a answered while I was typing, thanks will read this now.

Check the motor settings on your existing motor. Adjust them. This is a whole world you have no experience in and it will completely change your perception of what a BBSHD is. And its simple and easy to do. Once you understand whats possible, then decide if you want to go further with new equipment.

 

[m@Robertson]

While I am a bit hesitant to start tweaking my BBSHD, I am willing to give it a try. First step is to order a new kit and tuning box from Luna Cycle.

Don't be hesitant... you have a complete guide handed to you on a silver platter . You can't screw up. Luna no longer sells the Black Box tuner. I have one of the early ones and for years it was my go-to until I discovered the Speeed app, which gives a whole new level of convenience.

I have an Apple iPhone, is there an equivalent IOS version of speeed?

I don't believe so. Probably you are looking at using a version of the Penov/Penoff software on a PC/laptop along with a programming cable. Also you can buy an Eggrider v2 and its display has the settings interface built into it, but I don't recommend that product for a variety of reasons I'll skip for now.

Also, should I order the larger 52 volt battery?

A 52v pack has more usable volts in its range so you can run for longer. Increased power is minimal. The real benefit is the ability to run it longer before it runs out of volts. Myself personally I run exclusively on 52v. I buy my packs from Bicycle Motor Works. Luna no longer sells batteries. I got one of the last Wolf Packs from them on a special accommodation they made for me a couple of years ago, when I showed them how awesome the Wolf Pack fits in my Apostate's frame. They were only selling packs with full kits, but sold me just the battery cuz I have bought so much from them over the years.

 

[knightrider]

The solution to that is to adjust the cadence programming so it can't run away from you, which it does on the factory tune. Then you just dial back the pedal assist to a lower level than what you need to maintain your preferred cadfence level. So you are always expending effort to maintain cadence. Your tuning should allow very little assist, or a whole lot, so you have a range of assist that lets you dial your effort level way up or down as your desires of the moment dictate.

I have to agree with @slitespd's post. I have been building and riding BBSHD'd bikes since 2017, and I am a pedaler, not a throttler. I am a lifelong cyclist, ride for exercise and I started out at around 265 lbs, so I was similarly motivated to work hard. I have never heard of bearing wear for this reason, but I DO know what wear is caused by hard pedaling, and its not the bearings. In fact, bearing wear makes no sense as you are not putting anywhere near the rpms or the torque on the spindle and bearings as the motor does.

I get the feeling you got some bad advice either from a seller who wanted to shift the blame from a defective product, or an internet expert on a forum... who wasn't much of one. Of course, that could be me too. But think through the logic of that argument. Look at the axle+bearing assembly (and the two other bearings built into the casing and motor cover) and try and understand how that mechanism of action is possible. But look at the clutch and picture how it is ordinarily freewheeling internally, until you start torqueing the bejesus out of it, its plastic gears and its three little pawls (and lets remember how three-pawl cassette bodies fare long-term under strong mid drive power).

Here's a very detailed look at the clutch and its replacement.

To get that power level, and have the motor survive it, you are looking at an X1 Pro. My X1 Pro will happily feed that much power and more (peaks around 4000w), but it can't go that high on pedal assist. I would not expect that motor to do well long-term at those power levels. Also you have to realize no one will ever wonder whether you are riding an ebike due to the noise all motors in this class put out.

FYI by comparison, a 30a BBSHD on a 52v battery is going to peak at over 1700w and will happily provide a steady 1500w continuous output on throttle. My heavier-output tunes give me pedal assist at around 1000w on PAS9 but you can get it up higher than that.

Actually rode it at zero because I wanted the exercise. I was pretty heavy and wanted to maintain a 15 mph speed, apparently a big mistake. I tend not to use the throttle except to cross a busy street, to mount the bike, or to restart on a climb. My only complaint about theBBSHD is the cadence sensor vs a torque sensor. I will take a closer look the CYC line. My goal is to get a constant 1,500 watt with a peak of about 2,200 watts.

You state that you want the exercise and don`t run the motor on pas levels but you want 2 giga bites of power. I don`t understand.
.

 

[Cybersnow]

Good call, I now live in very mountainous country and was looking for a little more power to pedal up some of the very steep dirt roads. I didn’t know that the max power ratings were really all about using the throttle. I guess I was looking to pull the grades in a higher gear and not drop down in speed. Changed that idea!

 

[m@Robertson]

Good call, I now live in very mountainous country and was looking for a little more power to pedal up some of the very steep dirt roads.

I think you are focusing on the wrong thing here. You use gears to get up a hill, not extreme power. here lookit:

That is a 28T front chainring. And on the back, I am using a pie plate cluster with a big 51T cog. I can climb ANYTHING on pedal assist with no trail at all, never mind singletrack. And as you can see that is not a petite bike. Those panniers (actually duffel bags) hold 168L each and one use for the bike is gathering wood for a campfire. And then there's this... this is my main daily driver. 'big' 42T ring up front, but a 48T cog in back, and that stuff in the box doesn't look like much, right? Thats 110 lbs of pea gravel. I will climb a 16% grade to get that gravel home.

I am cheating a little because that white bike is 2wd, but the front motor is only a 45 Nm geared hub so it helps, but its not a miracle worker. I'm sure you get the idea I am trying to put across here: More power is not the right answer. Especially since you will start breaking things once you get it.

I guess I was looking to pull the grades in a higher gear and not drop down in speed. Changed that idea!

Oh yeah... that is an absolute disaster Its the prime way to either kill your motor or tear apart your drivetrain. The Facebook DIY user discussion groups are littered with the wreckage of people who went down that road.

You have to sacrifice speed. Gear down one gear lower (or until you get the hang of it, go two gears too low) than the one you will need BEFORE you get to the bottom start of your hill. Then maintain your cadence on the way up, altering your PAS level to adjust your effort level so it stays acceptable. As the slope changes, you use your PAS level up/down instead of shifting your derailleur to maintain fast cadence without popping a blood vessel (you go too low on the gearing so if you get an unexpected slope increase you aren't stopped dead and won't break your chain with a power increase to climb out of the problem). Its an entirely different technique from an analog bicycle and its one more reason an ebike is a bicycle-shaped object but not a bicycle.

How To Ride a Mid Drive Ebike Without Breaking It

If you can ride a bicycle you already know how to ride a hub drive ebike. Not so a mid drive. Particularly a powerful one that can tear your chain apart. Fear not. The rules are simple.

talesontwowheels.com

Pedal assist may well be programmable to peak motor levels. I just don't do it. But you have the tools to explore the idea.

 

[knightrider]

If you aren`t going to use the pas then you don`t need torque sensing. Build you a BBSHD with a 36 chain ring with about 46x12 cassette a throttle and 48 or 52 volt batt. You can climb more hill than you can stay on the bike. It will not bog down. It will either wheely over or lose traction on the rear because you are loading the front end to keep it on the ground. I have built a many of these for people like you. Pedal until you need help. Hit the throttle and enjoy the power. The damn HD is a beast and probably the most over built motor out there. Just listen to others that have been there and reprogram it to your liking. You get it right and you will park that factory built bike you have.

 

[Cybersnow]

Update
Took the Zen to what we call the “ugly hill” and rode up it PAS 3 and Rohloff 11, average speed was 11mph. Then took the Fargo up the same hill PAS 5 and rear axel in the third largest gear average speed expending about the same energy was 8 mph. That had me wondering why the two supposedly 1,000 watt motors were do different. I remembered that I had a box in the barn with Bagang parts so hauled it out only to find a couple of 48 v batteries and the BBSHD motor. Ok, that meant that the Fargo was running the BBS02. Which makes sense. I remembered then that three years ago I pulled that motor due to a loud grinding noise and installed the 750w motor. So I guess I could send the BBSHD to someone to rebuild it, or just go buy another motor kit. I never saw a difference between the 52v and 48v battery in anything other than distance so I still would go with the bigger 52v battery.

 

[knightrider]

a dc motor will run stronger on more volts. Considering the controller limits also.The mileage yielded is also a plus. I don`t play with the 60 and 72 volts as high voltage and Mr. Roberts does. Just not my jam. But the power they can get out of the HD with the volts and controllers in amazing.

 

[slitespd]

Awesome information shared by those that have experience and knowledge about motors and controller programming parameters. It’s great to part of a group that makes riding electric enjoyable and as aerobic as we feel fit enough to do.

I motorized my SWB Bacchetta Giro a couple of months back. I had tried selling it but the market for recumbents in my area is nearly non-existent unless selling at < 1/3 of the value. I am glad I kept it and added the BBS02 750w motor with a 48v battery.

Even though the bike went from 33 lbs to 55lbs, I’m riding it again and getting every bit as good of a workout as my upright road bike. I now have the added benefit of being able to ride it up any grade I choose at speeds faster than a slug.

Thanks to all,


JK