How the Game Works - CF 101

[Mike leroy]

Having imported 300,000 pedal only bikes from China, we realize that US market for E-bikes is very small.
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There are several other market forces other than "economies of scale" that push prices high but it gives a false impression that E-bikes are very expensive. and drives customer away. Eventually this leads to a vicious cycle of dull growth and high prices.

Lenny,
Why don't you work with Rakesh Dhawan the CEO at Falco eMotors to produce a USA version of the Grace One.15? I have spoken with him about the idea. Sounds like Grace has some weaknesses that an American bike can compete against. You might even be able to gain Ford's support! The Pedego-Ford Super Cruiser is a stylish, but mediocre eBike.

His email address is [email protected] .

 

[Lenny]

Lenny,
Why don't you work with Rakesh Dhawan the CEO at Falco eMotors to produce a USA version of the Grace One.15? I have spoken with him about the idea. Sounds like Grace has some weaknesses that an American bike can compete against. You might even be able to gain Ford's support! The Pedego-Ford Super Cruiser is a stylish, but mediocre eBike.

His email address is [email protected] .

Rakesh was one of our largest suppliers back in 1980's when we owned American TV and furniture. We have started working on trike conversions and retrofit using their system, recently.
The market for Grace 1.5 is very minimal and people would rather purchase a motrocycle (electric!) instead of Grace 1.5. Did you know you can get a Brammo for $7K?

 

[Mike leroy]

Rakesh was one of our largest suppliers back in 1980's when we owned American TV and furniture. We have started working on trike conversions and retrofit using their system, recently.
The market for Grace 1.5 is very minimal and people would rather purchase a motrocycle (electric!) instead of Grace 1.5. Did you know you can get a Brammo for $7K?

. Rakesh emailed me earlier and said it is a "great idea" and will contact Ford.
I am familiar with Brammo. Do you think it is worth $7K?

What is the Bill of Materials for a Grace One.15? At $5,400 is the One.15 a better value than the Brammo?

I hope Rakesh can get the equivalent power from his 1kW motor that A2B does from 2kW. Rakesh's focus is on efficiency. This is an opportunity for him to prove his tech and distinguish himself as a Tier 1 supplier to the industry.

Under California, not federal, law a 1 kW motor is a legal "motorized bicycle" -- not a motorcycle or moped. In California, A 1kW eBike does not require DMV registration, insurance or a license.

I am interested in how low you think the cost can be pushed for an equivalent Grace One.15?
Can a Falco-powered eBike be successfully marketed with Ford as a muscle-eBike? Consumers can relate to that concept as easily as a Sondors Beach Cruiser.

 

[Lenny]

. Rakesh emailed me earlier and said it is a "great idea" and will contact Ford.
I am familiar with Brammo. Do you think it is worth $7K?

What is the Bill of Materials for a Grace One.15? At $5,400 is the One.15 a better value than the Brammo?

I hope Rakesh can get the equivalent power from his 1kW motor that A2B does from 2kW. Rakesh's focus is on efficiency. This is an opportunity for him to prove his tech and distinguish himself as a Tier 1 supplier to the industry.

Under California, not federal, law a 1 kW motor is a legal "motorized bicycle" -- not a motorcycle or moped. In California, A 1kW eBike does not require DMV registration, insurance or a license.

I am interested in how low you think the cost can be pushed for an equivalent Grace One.15?
Can a Falco-powered eBike be successfully marketed with Ford as a muscle-eBike? Consumers can relate to that concept as easily as a Sondors Beach Cruiser.

I suggest you start a thread " Mile Leroy's ideas" and compile everything under one thread. Our conversation here is steering away from the focus of this thread.

 

[Brambor]

Maybe Mike can have his own sub forum.

 

[Mike leroy]

I suggest you start a thread " Mile Leroy's ideas" and compile everything under one thread. Our conversation here is steering away from the focus of this thread.

Ok. I will post under ford and pedego forums. You are right they are more appropriate there. Hopefully I will get the bike I want from them.

 

[Gus]

I think the Grace One.15 could stimulate demand like the Sondors..

I disagree.

I always get questions about my Stromer but no one cares about the drivetrain, the motor, or the PAS system. I have been asked "can you do burnouts?" at least a half a dozen times and everyone is confused why it doesn't have a motorcycle type throtle. No one ever cares about the nitty gritty technical eBike specs because so few people are familiar with eBikes.

My point is, the US eBike market is so far behind that people won't care about all the technology advancements on the Grace. The price will scare everyone away and you can try to convince them the benefits of a Gates belt drive until you are blue in the face and it won't matter. The Grace starts to play around in motorcycle pricing territory, so people will always ask "why not just buy a motorcycle?

Sondors may usher in a bunch of new eBike enthusiasts that want more, which will help the market but we are years away from something as the Grace being in high demand. What I really hope comes out of the Sondors campaign is 'real' eBike manufacturers go back to the drawing board and start to question their expensive eBike business model.

I think the key thing that will really spark eBike demand is if a manufacturer can build a Honda Accord-like eBike. Something that looks decent, delivers just enough performance to get the job done, is reliable, and sold at a really cheap price. Sub $1000 is probably the sweet spot.

The Sondors is the Pontiac Fiero and the Grace is the Ferrari of the eBike world IMO.

 

[Mike leroy]

I disagree.

I always get questions about my Stromer but no one cares about the drivetrain, the motor, or the PAS system. I have been asked "can you do burnouts?" at least a half a dozen times and everyone is confused why it doesn't have a motorcycle type throtle. No one ever cares about the nitty gritty technical eBike specs because so few people are familiar with eBikes.

My point is, the US eBike is so far behind that people won't care about all the technology advancements on the Grace. The price will scare everyone away and you can try to convince them the benefits of a Gates belt drive until you are blue in the face and it won't matter. The Grace starts to play around in motorcycle pricing territory, so people will always ask "why not just buy a motorcycle?

Sondors may usher in a bunch of new eBike enthusiasts that want more, which will help the market but we are years away from something as the Grace being in high demand. What I really hope comes out of the Sondors campaign is 'real' eBike manufacturers go back to the drawing board and start to question their expensive eBike business model.

I think the key thing that will really spark eBike demand is if a manufacturer can build a Honda Accord-like eBike. Something that looks decent, delivers just enough performance to get the job done, is reliable, and sold at a really cheap price. Sub $1000 is probably the sweet spot.

The Sondors is the Pontiac Fiero and the Grace is the Ferrari of the eBike world IMO.

Gus,
I do not want to get off the topic of this thread. I created a more appropriate thread here. I am arguing to bring the cost of a Grace One.15 equivalent down by as much as is reasonable. I feel a 2kW is overkill. a 1kW Falco may generate equal power, at a much lower price point.

 

[Brambor]

Mike

You seem to be (my assumption) completely bypassing the value of reliability in your decision making. Comparing Grace One to Falco without understanding quality of build and reliability is apples and oranges to me.

 

[Mike leroy]

Mike

You seem to be (my assumption) completely bypassing the value of reliability in your decision making. Comparing Grace One to Falco without understanding quality of build and reliability is apples and oranges to me.

Mike

Lenny complained this is off topic, so I started a different thread on Pedego. Could you respond to that thread? I think Ford would require exact performance standards from Falco. The auto industry is notorious for the relationships with parts suppliers. Everyone benefits. I want to learn from you about Grace. Perhaps, Grace is worth the money. Pleas respond to Pedego forum.

 

[switzloco]

Hopefully they at least got more people onto electric bikes for the first time. There's some value in that.

 

[tinasdude]

There are some good crowd funded deals, the rad rover and the Juggernaut are good examples. I think people that were knowledgeable of the bike components got these deals. I think a significant number of Sonders purchasers had little e-bike knowledge or the wouldn't have purchased. Some of these deals are just a 3rd party arranging a group buy and passing on savings. If someone looks at the sand viper, they should have definitely looked at the Juggernaut.

 

[George S.]

Learn by doing, with other people's money...

I think a lot of these campaigns drifted into the red. I don't think any of the campaigns really got their costs right. They thought they could ship into Europe, but ran into complications. They thought they could ship batteries fairly easily, but couldn't. They thought people shared their vision, and the evolution of the product, but people basically wanted the product as quickly as possible. There were a lot of accounting problems, just keeping track of orders and colors, etc.

Watch Luna Cycles with their cheap batteries. They are saying they will market a product based on volume and a low cost structure. If they succeed, the basic requirement for an ebike becomes a cheap, commodity product. Sure, if you want a specially molded Bosch pack for $900, it's out there. But where there is a basic block you can pick up for $300? (The $300 battery is not listed. Maybe it is sold out. I don't know)

http://lunacycle.com/battery/

(Edit: I asked them, and they are sold out. Low prices are apparently generating volume, which makes sense.)

There are batteries, bikes, motors, whatever, on Aliexpress. They want to make it like Ebay. Smart people can do stuff here, like assemble battery packs and kits.

CF may find a specialty niche, but the economics are bad, and the risks to the participants are real.