Honest feedback about DOST Bikes?

[cuwatra]

Court,

Please see below...When did you start giving star ratings to bike reviews? Not just a star rating, but in this case an apparent 5 stars? Is this honest feedback or a bit of false advertising? I don't see the specific verbiage used below anywhere in the printed reviews.

Based on the integrity and transparency you've cultivated for years I'd be surprised if you were happy with 'selective quoting' to promote sales. It does look like an official EBR "choice product" logo. Can you please clarify? If this was done w/o your permission it is my opinion that Dost should be called out for putting up a fake logo and star rating. I will assume honest intent until we hear directly from you but must admit this does seem fishy.



(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

 

[DÖST]

Hi @cuwatra , thanks for bringing this up. Please watch the DROP review that EBR posted:

and listen to the minute: 27:27. This quote comes straight from there.
Sam

 

[Rick53]

Yeah I don't see where this violates or serves as an endorsement : Court Did Say it : Plus Court does upgrade a List of his Favorites on EBR

 

[cuwatra]

Thanks for the reply, but I'm hoping for a response from Court (Ask Court Anything.) We still also need clarification about the star rating shown as I've never seen Court/EBR use that specific 5-star measurement system.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

A long time ago he used a 10 scale rating. Worst I ever saw him give any ebike was a 7/10.

 

[cuwatra]

A long time ago he used a 10 scale rating. Worst I ever saw him give any ebike was a 7/10.

Right...I actually recall seeing that 10 scale but like you say, now defunt for many years. Another reason why I question this 5-star (out of 5 I assume) scale. I'm not trying to pick on DOST here unnecessarily but it seems at least slightly deceptive to me.

 

[TomD]

Hi @cuwatra , thanks for bringing this up. Please watch the DROP review that EBR posted:

and listen to the minute: 27:27. This quote comes straight from there.
Sam

ORLY? If that's where the quote comes from it's not even an accurate quote. Where do we find the 5 star rating? Where do we find the official EBR "choice product" logo in the review or anywhere on EBR or did you manufacture that as well? At some point integrity is lost.

 

[Johnny]

OP's profile picture resembles Court, a long lost brother maybe .

A side note, Court didn't say "This is not an endorsement" in the beginning of the video.

 

[TomD]

EBR seems to have changed the verbiage recently.

To run the forums, host the website, and travel, I charge a universal service fee for my reviews. This in-depth review was sponsored by [insert company name]. My goal is to be transparent and unbiased with you, this video and writeup are not meant to be an endorsement of [insert company name] products. I welcome your corrections, additions, and feedback in the comments below and the [insert company name] electric bike forums.

This in-depth review was facilitated by [insert company name] and they are an advertiser on EBR. My goal is to be transparent and unbiased with you, this video and writeup are not meant to be an endorsement of [insert company name] products.

 

[John from Connecticut]

Yeah I don't see where this violates or serves as an endorsement : Court Did Say it : Plus Court does upgrade a List of his Favorites on EBR

Hello,
I agree with Rick53. I checked the Dost website. In my opinion by quoting Court directly from his review, they are doing what the movie, auto
and music industry and others have done ever since their respective products have come under review by professional reviewers.

I'm ok with the faux 'award' because it's attached to a quote layout that Dost created. Yes it's similar, but as Rick53 stated, Court does upgrade
a list of his favorites. If Court didn't do a positive review or none at all that would be a different story.

 

[TomD]

Setting the bar high can be a competitive advantage. It speaks to company leadership, values and how it will be run. Similarly, setting the bar low can also be a leading indicator of things to come. To each their own...

 

[Explorer-1]

I'm not seeing the disclaimers any more on any of the videos, did the laws change?

 

[Admin]

You guys are awesome! Great question from @cuwatra and I really appreciate the responses from @Rick53 and @Deleted Member 4210. I'll answer questions below and try to be as complete and transparent as possible:

• @cuwatra I do not give out star ratings, DŌST extracted that from the "choice product" badge that any company who ends up on the "best ebikes" page of EBR can use. That badge was co-created by Rad Power Bikes last year because they had a couple of bikes on the list and wanted something that looked nice to use on their site. We went back and forth on designs and they liked that one, so I was like... yeah, you can use it as long as anyone else can too. I purposefully avoid stars and number ratings because it's difficult to keep the scores up to date and relevant for older bikes. I want EBR to be like an archive of information and I feel that scoring is way too subjective, and it's not something that I love to do. Instead, I've got the "best ebikes" page where I list a bunch of categories and choose premium, value, and affordable for each. Those bikes all change throughout the year as I cover new bikes, it's like a rolling realtime update. DŌST was pretty aggressive with their quote grab and the stars, I actually wrote to them to change the original quote because it made me feel uncomfortable. This still makes me a little uncomfortable, and I appreciate you letting me know that it felt off to you as well.
• @Deleted Member 4210 you're exactly right, I used to rank bikes with a 10 point scale... but I spent a lot of time scrutinizing the numbers, defending my choices, and wondering if I should go back and update them. I also graded very favorably across the board (almost nothing below 7) because I feel that even a cheap ebike can be a great deal for certain scenarios and I wasn't deep into performance comparisons around handling on mountain bikes and road bikes... I'm still a bit more of an overview guy, with the data on the site to help back it up. My hope is that open comments and me showing the bikes on camera and in pictures can allow the community to get more critical... especially real owners or people who work in shops who have seen performance over time. I've had to pick and choose where to spend my time and energy, and ratings just hasn't been a priority.
• @tomdav thanks for being aggressive here, I welcome your criticism and questioning! I feel that DŌST has either shortened or modified the quote to fit their mobile screen width requirements or is just being aggressive because they liked the review... that doesn't make it right, and their original quote was completely out of thin air, something like "DŌST doesn't just raise the bar, they set it" which I immediately called and emailed them about. They changed it after one day, which made me feel frustrated. I think perhaps their web dev guy was using a placeholder because they had specifically asked me to time my reviews for their launch day... maybe they just forgot to update it with a real quote (since my reviews weren't live yet). In any case, I'm glad they changed it, but they have still been pretty aggressive with the marketing, putting me front and center is a mix of flattering but also I feel like I'm in the spotlight and a bit uncomfortable with that. They also used my full name initially, and I asked to just have my first name... and they complied. As for the EBR choice product logo, I mentioned that above, it was created with Rad Power Bikes in 2018 or 2019 because they wanted something that would look good on their site and I approved it without thinking too much about the stars, I just thought it was a design element. Maybe I should be more protective of my brand, seeing how it's pulled out and emphasized here :/
• @Johnny you're correct! YouTube now has a checkbox when you upload videos to say if they are endorsements. I check that and I also add the appropriate verbiage in my written reviews. My goal is to follow the Canadian influencer marketing guidelines, but also make viewers happy. I used to have that video intro thing where I'd say "we receive a service fee, we strive to be objective" but lots of people complained. We shortened the intro clip, then I got some legal advice and was told that by checking the box, we were complying but it might make users happier to just remove it. Do you think it should be added again? My goal is to be transparent, and there have also been times where I covered bikes for free because the community really wanted it and the company wasn't interested. That's actually something I'd like to do more in the future... have community voting about which bikes to see, then we could buy and review and donate the bike or something. Of course, it's important to make money too, to pay for hosting, engineering, moderating, travel, etc. so that's why there is a service fee at all. I try to limit the number of YouTube ads, that's another compromise to try to honor you guys and not waste your time
• @John from Connecticut I appreciate your input, I want to be above board... but the companies I work with are a bit outside of my control. It's neat to get to work with them and to be like "I loved this bike" but then it's a little uncomfortable to see people upset or feeling like I'm selling out or something. I'm trying very hard to be balanced, but also genuinely enthusiastic when warranted. You may also see me saying that I love Riese & Müller products... because they are awesome too but they don't seem to ever quote me, lol.
• @tomdav ouch, but I agree with you. I'm trying to set the bar high... but sometimes I might be leaving the bar unattended because I'm trying to stay small and lean. Please note that I did contact DŌST to request that they change their original placeholder quote, which was even more aggressive. I did not explicitly give them permission to post the badge and quote on their website initially, and hadn't seen the site at all until they went live. It does still make me a little uncomfortable and I'm processing the best way to respond or handle this. I appreciate your feedback and input. I'm open to suggestions.
• @CityExplorer I was kind of going above and beyond before, but people complained about the video intro snippet. Now I blend text acknowledgement of paid content with checking this box on YouTube and occasionally do a free review so I don't put anything at all. I hope that clears things up, I welcome your input around what would feel the most comfortable as a watcher but also honest... and this is why I'm responding at length here

As always, I'm here to answer follow up questions... but may not respond right away (as you've seen with Ask Court Anything). Just been busy traveling, shows, processing stuff, and trying to spend some time with my girlfriend this past weekend (friend's birthday party). I hope you're all well! Here's my original "editor's choice badge" before getting some input form other companies... no stars, all style!



And here's the full list of possible designs that I worked on with Rad a while back. They have a good designer, so it was neat to get some input. This is the first time that stars were added in and I just went with it because I was busy with travel and reviews. Which one do you guys like best?

 

[cuwatra]

Thank you, Court. As far as I'm concerned you're integrity and honesty continues to shine through the years and even as your 'brand' has grown exponentially. That is a tough high-road to stay on and I and many others appreciate you!

 

[TomD]

Hey court, thanks for the clarification. My two cents on the logo - it should match what's on EBR. If you are not giving out star ratings I think that's misleading to have it in the logo. Also, I'd think if you allow an official logo or review to be used on another website there should at a minimum be a link back to the review for the user. That's the first thing I do when I see a product touting a review is click for more details and when I can't do that I become suspicious and wonder what they are trying to hide. I noticed I couldn't do that on the Dost site.

 

[Admin]

Hey court, thanks for the clarification. My two cents on the logo - it should match what's on EBR. If you are not giving out star ratings I think that's misleading to have it in the logo. Also, I'd think if you allow an official logo or review to be used on another website there should at a minimum be a link back to the review for the user. That's the first thing I do when I see a product touting a review is click for more details and when I can't do that I become suspicious and wonder what they are trying to hide. I noticed I couldn't do that on the Dost site.

That’s a really good suggestion @tomdav and I’m surprised and a little sad that companies haven’t just done that on their own. I occasionally get calls about using photos and embedding videos and I always say “go for it!” to be helpful (and it exposes my brand a bit too). I don’t use watermarks because I want people on Craigslist or people who work at shops that might need some images to be able to do it without clutter... but I can see how they might also choose to be misleading by using my photos and claiming that it’s their own or something. I guess I’ve just been trying to be positive and share openly because I think that in some cases people are using it for good and not to be deceptive. Thanks again for the input, I’ll keep thinking on this and best practices.

 

[scout592]

I like tomdav comments about the logo with no stars, also I would think the companies would want a link back to your review if they are on that list. As a side note, I like your explanations in your responses to the concerns with Dost in your post above and it answered any questions I had. I am new to ebikes as of the past few months and have spent hours trying to learn about them before I purchase my first one. Your reviews have been invaluable to me in learning about ebikes and being able to see so many different companies and models that are reviewed and talked about on this site. Thanks for all you are doing for this industry.

 

[TomD]

I was browsing Rad's site last night and did notice the 5 star EBR logo. However, I will give them kudos for clearly communicating the award. Also, when you click it takes you to the EBR review.

Edit: I take some of the kudos back. It's misleading. There are 3 bikes listed under "Best Commuting Electric Bikes of 2020". Rad did not win the award for "Best Commuting Electric Bike of 2020". Rad is listed as the "affordable" choice.

In fact there are 69 bikes listed as "Best of 2020" and how many more bikes to be reviewed in 2020? I suggest adding more categories so everyone can win and put up a 5 star logo.

 

[Admin]

I was browsing Rad's site last night and did notice the 5 star EBR logo. However, I will give them kudos for clearly communicating the award. Also, when you click it takes you to the EBR review.

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Edit: I take some of the kudos back. It's misleading. There are 3 bikes listed under "Best Commuting Electric Bikes of 2020". Rad did not win the award for "Best Commuting Electric Bike of 2020". Rad is listed as the "affordable" choice.

In fact there are 69 bikes listed as "Best of 2020" and how many more bikes to be reviewed in 2020? I suggest adding more categories so everyone can win and put up a 5 star logo.

Hey @tomdav Rad started using the logo before I added three bikes per category and added most categories on the site. Having reviewed over a thousand ebikes at this point, I was getting feedback from visitors that they wanted more help navigating and selecting the best bikes... but "best" is very subjective. For this reason, I decided to go with the affordable, value, and premium model. It's not perfect for every visitor because each person has a different need. Some people need the best bike for a tall or heavy rider, others want the most power but also need full suspension. The number of categories on the site has grown, it takes a lot of work to update and maintain the "best ebikes" page, and I feel that each bike listed there deserves recognition because they stand out. My goal in the coming years is to flip that page each year and start with the best products. It's one of the most popular pages on the website, and as such, I have been putting more time into making it useful for people. The badge thing was never a priority for me, it's not a way to build links or get paid... because nobody pays for the ranking and they change frequently. This is part of why I pushed the language on the image to be "Choice Product" because each one is chosen as one of the best in a specific category. Marketing teams at other companies may identify as "the best" and may be behind my current model. I haven't put a lot of energy into this because my goal has been to review more bikes, improve the tools on the website, answer comments, and also have fun with friends. I'm open to your feedback ongoing and I'll keep checking this thread ongoing. I see EBR as a living space and I'm trying to walk a line that is honest and creates value for all parties.