You know I have very much considered this and for the price its really nice! However I would like to ride on bike trails and occasionay on the road so that puts this out of my view for now. I dont like the idea of putting pedels on it as to me thats BS, its really a e-motorcycle so I dont want to take a chance with that. I may still get one one day just for off-road.If you just want an electric motorcycle with belt drive why not just get a SurRon?
Surron X Bike (Black Edition)
We are the USA distributor of this fast and fun dirt ebike.... buy it from the source! We have the newest bikes at the best price.lunacycle.com
Help finding FS/G510/Gates bike..
- Thread starter EBRQuest
- Start date
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
A big issue is that belt drive bikes require a chainstay that doesn't change length (they require high tension, and tension needs to stay constant under suspension cycling), but modern FS bike design uses a complex rear wheel path to improve suspension performance and pedaling efficiency. You'd need essentially a single pivot suspension design with the pivot centered on the bottom bracket (or some sort of linkage from the crank to the suspension pivot). The complexity and compromised suspension design just aren't worth it.
Kona actually made a singlespeed FS frame back in the early 2000s (the Kona A) that was a single pivot design with the main pivot centered on the BB. It was short lived.
In addition, as others have noted, belts don't hold up great to sticks and rocks and such. I've known several people with belt drive singlespeed MTBs and they all had belt durability issues (and when a belt snaps on the trail, you can't repair it like you can a chain). All of the people I knew with belt drive bikes either got rid of them or switched them to chains.
I guess I'm not clear how you arrived at the "absolutely need IGH and Gates and 80nm of torque isn't enough" requirements. If you want to ride on trails legally, class 1 is your only choice, at least in the US. And 80nm is plenty on a MTB on singletrack. When you're buying a mid drive MTB you aren't buying a braaaaaaap machine, its designed to feel and function like a MTB.
Kona actually made a singlespeed FS frame back in the early 2000s (the Kona A) that was a single pivot design with the main pivot centered on the BB. It was short lived.
In addition, as others have noted, belts don't hold up great to sticks and rocks and such. I've known several people with belt drive singlespeed MTBs and they all had belt durability issues (and when a belt snaps on the trail, you can't repair it like you can a chain). All of the people I knew with belt drive bikes either got rid of them or switched them to chains.
I guess I'm not clear how you arrived at the "absolutely need IGH and Gates and 80nm of torque isn't enough" requirements. If you want to ride on trails legally, class 1 is your only choice, at least in the US. And 80nm is plenty on a MTB on singletrack. When you're buying a mid drive MTB you aren't buying a braaaaaaap machine, its designed to feel and function like a MTB.
F*cking sweet, mate. Dual suspension and 3.6kW.. the fastest motors out there are like 5kW mid-drives for bikes! With the added weight and lower power, bikes really have to up their game to keep up. That thing sounds like an awesome time though..
I only have a 250W modded Xiaomi, but it still crushed the acceleration of those $4.5k Euro cruisers. Made me take a closer look at the physics involved, and the direct drive advantages vs. mid-drives. Turns out there's a lot of physics involved and reasons why the bikes are slower (but partially just idiot legislation). Only things that bikes should have are gearboxes and mid-drives mounted with low CG in the BB area, in my opinion. Reason why this hasn't happened is controlling law..
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Thanks, McCorby. Good to know another angle on this. That completely makes sense. The teeth on chain drives will tend to spit out debris through the links, rather than trap it underneath the belt, leading to derailment..
You don't want a 2500W Luna. Ludicrous just magnifies the issues with the stock controller. If you go with the Ultra you'll want to upgrade to the Innotrace controller (offered by Watt Wagons in North America). Much smoother and more efficient. One user reported almost twice as efficient.
First ride with the Archon X1 upgrade!
Ride #4 today. Decided to ride around Lake Sammamish (lake below in this picture), something I had never had the courage to attempt with the stock controller given monster hill to get home. Starting Voltage: 53.8V (95% battery) Ending Voltage: 48.3V (60% battery) Distance: 35 miles Gain...electricbikereview.com
Wow, thanks Tom. I actually e-mailed Luna about this and got crickets. I wanted to know the differences between their controller, the Archon X-1, the Exess controller, and the stock. The controller for this motor is what takes a mid-range punchy paperweight into a true machine. There needs to be some 3rd party engineering articles on all the controllers being made for these non-Euro motors. The 'just buy our awesome thing' marketing strategy is immensely irritating to me. I want to see input wattage, torque output at the spindle and the rear wheel, current handling capabilities, etc..
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It does not automatically require this, nor does this necessarily make the frame much weaker, depending on the linkage. There are chain-like belt designs that can be installed without a frame modification now. Thanks to these responses I see now how a superior engineering concept got shelved. You have to do it exactly right (which takes intelligence) and you have to account for the stupidity of the operator (which in humans is infinite). In all seriousness, that's what makes commercial offerings so neutered: the lawsuit fear..
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I actually initially got a basic 300W scooter for my wife and drove that for a few months before I got mine. I loved it too, drove to gym, gas stations (for fun and snacks, lol), etc. I still will ride that for certain trips or to be more low key. It goes plenty fast for its size, I think 18Mph is its top speed. Just about right for its tires and geometry. For the price its perfect too.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Sounds like EBRQuest needs to start a bike company, since he knows so much more than the all the idiots who design bikes now. 
If you just want an electric motorcycle with belt drive why not just get a SurRon?
Surron X Bike (Black Edition)
We are the USA distributor of this fast and fun dirt ebike.... buy it from the source! We have the newest bikes at the best price.
Tom, that thread was enormously informative! Thanks for linking. I don't want to go 'motorbike' because of tightening laws where I live, and also I want it to be lightweight enough to ride effectively. I want a light powerbike, essentially.
I'm realizing through all the research I've done that I may need to wait for motor and battery tech to advance a bit more to drop weight, and for the industry to expand around pivot suspension designs like the Effigear. The controller technology is also really new and rough right now for bikes, as far as I can tell. I'll probably end up just building my own bike for now, since research has proved more headache inducing with how many 'you can't do it' type people everywhere. The bike industry is a sport industry first, not automotive, so I suspect that definitional and law technicality will always be holding back creative minds..
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Sounds like EBRQuest needs to start a bike company, since he knows so much more than the all the idiots who design bikes now.
..lol.. sorry mate. Didn't mean to come across that way. I'd end up in the same debacles, because a successful business isn't about the best engineering, it's about appealing to your customers and staying within the law. I don't think I'm smarter, just frustrated at the powers that be, neutering freedom and transportation options because of the endless hunger to grease pockets..
Check it out, dude! FS cruiser bike with pivot Gates drive. This one is from the Netherlands. Too bad it looks like a moped.. cheapest FS Gates you can get!
TomD
Well-Known Member
I always wonder how well rear suspension works with a heavy rear hub in the wheel adding unsprung weight. On my Frey CC the rack isn't suspended and I definitely notice when it's loaded with weight. Better than nothing but at some point I suspect you don't do much better than a suspension seatpost on a hardtail.
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
Still not clear what your use case is. You specified MTB, which implies trail. but are looking at bikes that are definitely not trail bikes. Is it just some sort of "I've decided these technologies are the best and have to have them!" sort of thing?
IGHs/belt is a great solution for situations where you want to prioritize low maintenance. But they have a lot of disadvantages. IGHs are heavier and less efficient than chain drivetrains. They are much more complex to manufacture and as such are more expensive. They require some sort of torque arm which makes removing the rear wheel a pain the ass. Belts are great for singlespeed bikes, but putting one on a full suspension bike requires serious compromises in the design of that suspension. The are not field repairable if you snap one.
If you just gotta check those boxes, hey, best of luck.
IGHs/belt is a great solution for situations where you want to prioritize low maintenance. But they have a lot of disadvantages. IGHs are heavier and less efficient than chain drivetrains. They are much more complex to manufacture and as such are more expensive. They require some sort of torque arm which makes removing the rear wheel a pain the ass. Belts are great for singlespeed bikes, but putting one on a full suspension bike requires serious compromises in the design of that suspension. The are not field repairable if you snap one.
If you just gotta check those boxes, hey, best of luck.
Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
The OP just needed an electric motorcycle, @jabberwocky
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
I gotta say, that Sur Ron X looks sick! I have no real place to use one, but if I had more land or moto trails near me it would be awful tempting.The OP just needed an electric motorcycle, @jabberwocky
Still not clear what your use case is. You specified MTB, which implies trail. but are looking at bikes that are definitely not trail bikes. Is it just some sort of "I've decided these technologies are the best and have to have them!" sort of thing?
IGHs/belt is a great solution for situations where you want to prioritize low maintenance. But they have a lot of disadvantages. IGHs are heavier and less efficient than chain drivetrains. They are much more complex to manufacture and as such are more expensive. They require some sort of torque arm which makes removing the rear wheel a pain the ass. Belts are great for singlespeed bikes, but putting one on a full suspension bike requires serious compromises in the design of that suspension. The are not field repairable if you snap one.
If you just gotta check those boxes, hey, best of luck.
Looking for a MTB to get back into riding roads and trails, unpowered. I want this same bike to have maximum torque and range for commuting. I'm also trying to get technologies in a single frame that I wanted to implement in my own build 10 years ago as a bike mechanic. I had to forego those technologies because they were not ready yet..
I'm not interested in a rear hub motor, nor am I interested in the Coast Cycles model above, nor the Sur Ron. I am interested in all of the above when it comes to tracking down when/where these ideas are being implemented in the industry, and for what customer base. I'm refreshing myself a bit, although I never cared about marketing and other bullshit. I was a mechanic, and still am, first and foremost..
Now, I'm looking for a true car replacement for commuting that is also a lightweight (comparatively) trail bike. At the same time, as I don't accumulate 'stuff', I'm looking for the last bike I will ever need to own. I want to invest in that platform, and haven't figured out what compromises I'll be okay with yet. As a previous competitive mechanic, probably none.
I'm not a mud thrasher, I ride carefully. Why? I had to repair people's bikes everyday with the stupid things they would do, not understanding them. I'd see how poorly seasoned mechanics would end up slapping together repairs, because they got burnt out dealing with the carelessness of people. I know that I am the only one I trust to do any repairs and builds. Any bike I get, I always end up rebuilding and fixing all the errors. When I ride a belt off road, if I do.. I for certain won't be the type of person to thrash up a gravel cloud or rooster tail of mud because I care for my machine and it is an extension of my body. It's the responsibility that comes from doing all the work yourself. So, I'm looking for ideal technologies put together in a bike that I've always wanted.. and I want that with serious torque and power in a mid-drive for late nights that I need to get home and am exhausted from work..
The 'caveats' that relate to idiot clauses I'm well aware of.. because I served those people for 10 years (moms and kids all the way up to competitive circuit athletes). The large majority of people are incredibly ignorant about how to ride to care for their machine. They endlessly do stupid things and just bring it in for repairs, like careful work just grows on trees.
I had a road bike that I built from the ground up that weighed a solid 27 lb., but I'd go for rides with dudes who had carbon Cervelo's and Pinarello's and Willier's. Many times I'd end up besting them because my wheels and drivetrain were optimized for micro friction. That kind of optimization doesn't 'happen', it takes months of work to build up, and if you thrash on a bike, you destroy many micro regions that can't be repaired, even on an $8k bike (10 years ago, that was about the most expensive carbon road bike.) So, I'm just hyper aware of these things. Categories and customer warnings really don't apply as much when you are in-tune with the machine you ride.
On the other side of the spectrum, do principles apply like external drive trains vs. IGH drive trains in terms of all weather riding? Hell yes. There's only a certain amount you can do to protect from use, no matter how conscious of a rider you are. Just reality..
If I was doing a build today for a circuit athlete, what would I do? Standard, just highly tuned, external drive train. Why? High efficiency, and the athlete will have experience and know he can trust it. Athletes can't do much more than one thing, and that's burn as hard as they can. They can't think about gearing mechanisms as they're about to try and break a record. When things go wrong, they're always looking for something to blame also..
For myself, I know that I would never build an external drive train ever again. Why? I repair everything, and know how poorly designed these things are in concept. In perfect conditions, with any one of the high end non-sticky lubricants (ideally a perfluorinated Teflon lubricant, or graphited) you will STILL attract dust to the gears because of electrical charge. In a single ride, that dust turns into an abrasive that eats away at your gears. Every ride, you have to wash off the cassette with a light lube and compressed air. Then reapply light lube after zero grit is detected and relube the shifters, check the shifting calibration, calipers, and wheel true. You miss one day of attention, and you notice an uptick in the noise and friction in the drivetrain. Harder to hold that high speed stretch at 27, or whatever..
Tom: For sure, having that extra weight in the rear wheel is always bad. Doesn't matter if it's an el cheapo suspension and you don't expect much, but for high end it sucks. Just a big old paperweight that slows down spring response, no matter how much you tune the shock. Same kind of thing with rear tracking suspension arcs. I'd try to avoid it at all costs if I was doing an ideal build. For a commuter, doesn't matter..
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Stefan Mikes
Gravel e-biker
- Region
- Europe
- City
- Mazovia, PL
This. Such e-MTB has already been invented. Name Specialized Turbo Levo SL.
TomD
Well-Known Member
Trust me, you will not find one bike for both. I got a Frey CC for city riding and light off road and a Luna X1 for more aggressive off road riding. I would not want to use either for the other purpose. The Frey CC is an absolute joy to ride (with upgraded controller) but heavy and similarly the X1 is light enough to throw in the back of the SUV and does what it should off road (with some quibbles about refinement at lower PAS but I found I tend to ride at higher PAS anyway so works for me). Not getting too caught up in what bike is best for city vs. trail, the reality is one will not work well for both. I started out with 1 bike, now I have 4, and 1 more on the way because... I must havez a belt drive and IGH. 
jabberwocky
Well-Known Member
I mean, I'd just look for a hardtail with whatever motor you want and clearance for reasonable tires and go to town. I think you're overthinking this. Some of your wants are in conflict with each other (full suspension is needlessly complex overkill for a commuter, and the geometry that makes for a good trail bike isn't ideal for riding on pavement or commuting). Belt drives are low maintenance, but then you want to saddle a commuter with suspension at both ends that will need at least annual servicing.
Jack-of-all-trades bikes tend to be mediocre at a bunch of things. It really makes more sense to get an actual mountainbike for mountainbiking and a commuter for commuting.
Riding carefully doesn't make that much difference when you get to real MTB trails. Maybe you just mean, like, dirt roads? MTBs break. They get exposed to dirt and water and bounced on rocks, and you will definitely crash eventually if you spend any time on singletrack. I do my own maintenance too, but I expect to break things because I like to ride difficult terrain. I don't lose sleep over it, I just don't spend big bucks on derailleurs or brake rotors or rims.
I... don't really know how to parse this. Your average road bike is ridiculously efficient, and any semi-fit roadie is going to be cruising at a speed where wind resistance starts dwarfing drivetrain losses and rolling resistance. Theres a reason that pros doing TT stuff are waaaaaaay more concerned with aero than they are with fancy low friction drivetrain mods (or even low bike weight).
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