Haibike, Yamha and Bosch

[Mike leroy]

@Mike leroy you can theorize ebikes forever but you won't ever know until you dive in. Few things in life are a sure thing! Trust me you will not be able to evaluate your needs by where I ride.

I started thinking about ebikes in the fall of 2013, just thinking! Half the time I would see an ebike while on my bike I thought e-bikers were "cheating", in retrospect I have no idea what they would have been cheating at. But I warmed to the idea and started reading, not contributing, reading. Specs, stories and advise. I watched Court's and Pet's videos and a couple other reviewers too.

I got to this community around late spring of 2014 and somewhat followed people here. People I thought had experiences I thought were valuable. Members like @Brambor @Shea N Encinitas @EddieJ @PowerMe @86 and still kicking @George S. @Court . And a few others here that are very honest, analytical and have experiences I can identify with. Follow these members, they will share their experiences. PowerMe doesn't even own an ebike but she is intelligent the way she goes about her research. Mind you I still was not a member here, just a reader.

I purchased an ebike early Fall, 2014 for the upcoming cold weather commuting season. That's when I joined this community and started to contribute and ask questions. I didn't get my ultimate dream ebike, I didn't know what that was anyway. I knew I could research ebikes forever and never get the perfect one. I've worked in commercial design, engineering and manufacturing for more than 30 years so I know there will always be something better. I figured I would get my feet wet and get a good yet moderately priced ebike and ride it for a year.

I continue to research and shop but I ride while doing it. For good or bad I'm hooked on ebikes now. I will continue to ride my road and mountain bikes but my X3 is there when I want a 35 mile blast with a couple thousand feet of climb. I'll have a better ebike this time next year (hopefully) because e-biking is a lot of fun, doing it, not reading it. Life is no good without some fun!

J.R.,
Thank you. I am a runner. I ran through the park with a friend's greyhound dog this morning. You take to biking like the dog takes to running. That dog does 360 degree spins at 12mph. 100% pure joy!. The dog spins crack me up!

The dog absolutely loves to run. And so do I. I only have room for an eBike as transportation in my life. I have to cut back on exercise, because it is unhealthy. I lose too much weight. 185 pounds is my natural weight. I lost 10 pounds last week from running too much, now that the days are longer and warmer. I dropped to 165 last summer. I am headed there again.

I have to be certain the bike will carry 50 pounds of groceries up an 18% grade. I estimate I need 90Nm of torque. Otherwise, the bike will collect dust.

Different strokes for different folks. I love the technology. Today, the technology interests me more than the physical activity.

 

[J.R.]

I have to be certain the bike will carry 50 pounds of groceries up an 18% grade.

Do you? When folks here have made suggestions you soot it down every time with the statement above. You make it sound as though the only time you leave the house you will be carrying 50 pounds and making a vertical climb in both directions. Reminds me of a father telling his kid how hard he had it when he was a kid by saying he walked to school 5 miles, in the snow barefoot and up hill in both directions.

You have to be creative when you are a bike commuter. Bring home little loads every chance you can. Offer a friend or neighbor a couple bucks for gas and go to the store with them. Take a stroll to the store one evening. You don't have to make it an either/or situation, it's not a must you take the bike every time you leave the house. You're in SF, not Death Valley! You get vittles now, a bike would be a transportation option.

Another option is to forget about all those fancy, cool bikes you've been reviewing and get a cargo bike like: http://electricbikereview.com/xtracycle/edgerunner-10e/
If they can move entire families around in China they can move you around SF!

 

[JoePah]

Kind of funny to read that Yamaha is the "lower cost" alternative.. That certainly isn't true in the Outboard Motor market.. Motor and parts very expensive, but they have a reputation for reliability.

After the dust settles, like to see what Yamaha can do with the overall cost of these mid drives which start at $4k now.

 

[EddieJ]

Point of reference, there is a dongle available for the Yamaha motor.

As a current and past Bosch owner, I'd opt for the Yamaha power unit, and wouldn't touch Nyon with a barge pole. Along with other European (German) owners, and once I have a price sorted out for an Intuvia set up, my Nyon is heading straight for the bin.

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/bosch-ebike-system-reliability.1297/

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/a-couple-of-bosch-drive-system-issues.1167/

 

[Mike leroy]

Point of reference, there is a dongle available for the Yamaha motor.

As a current and past Bosch owner, I'd opt for the Yamaha power unit, and wouldn't touch Nyon with a barge pole. Along with other European (German) owners, and once I have a price sorted out for an Intuvia set up, my Nyon is heading straight for the bin.

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/bosch-ebike-system-reliability.1297/

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/a-couple-of-bosch-drive-system-issues.1167/ To add to this thread, I am now on my third battery. I blame Nyon and software issues for this. I'm not alone with this issue either.
My take on things is that if Bosch don't up their game, they are going to fall by the way side, and rightly so. To many faults, and design failings.

I have gone to the pain to compare Yamaha and Bosch components side-by-side. I find Bosch is over-engineering. The components are more expensive and less useful.

The side-by-side comparison is intended to be used with this cost-benefit analysis.

As case in point: Yahama has the supremely practical, fourth sensor, "motor rotation" sensor. Sine Wave software uses the motor rotation sensors to extend the battery by twice that of Bosch. The cost tradeoff for Yahama was to move the expensive spindle torque sensor to an inexpensive "Pedal" sensor, placed under your foot. That is value to the customer.

 

[EddieJ]

Thanks for the link, that will make for some very interesting reading.

 

[Mike leroy]

Thanks for the link, that will make for some very interesting reading.

I also created a Google Sheet Template for side-by-side comparisons. I want to be fair and not come off as bashing Bosch. When I compared Haibike XDuro and SDuro specs, I was hard-pressed to find a difference from the information Haibike provides on their website.

I find it very difficult to compare without collecting the info from many sources, side-by-side. More scattered info than the human brain has working memory for.

 

[MLB]

I also created a Google Sheet Template for side-by-side comparisons. I want to be fair and not come off as bashing Bosch. When I compared Haibike XDuro and SDuro specs, I was hard-pressed to find a difference from the information Haibike provides on their website.

I find it very difficult to compare without collecting the info from many sources, side-by-side. More scattered info than the human brain has working memory for.

Would seem that the high torque Bafang drive is what you really need. Wheelies without peddling from the 750w 48v version.

 

[NoDTMF]

I am having trouble understanding this thread, but I'll weigh in anyway. I just rode ride where the grade varied from 10% to 23% The bike has the Bosch Active line Intuvia system. I'm 55 years old, maybe gives some perspective. The terrain was less than friendly, pebble gravel. I did have to walk the bike up in two sections because of traction.

I can say the Performance line would truly rock. So not sure of all these spreadsheet and there meaning. anyway if it helps, here is more info on my ride:

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/my-first-hardcore-ride.1702/

 

[Mike leroy]

I am having trouble understanding this thread, but I'll weigh in anyway. I just rode ride where the grade varied from 10% to 23% The bike has the Bosch Active line Intuvia system. I'm 55 years old, maybe gives some perspective. The terrain was less than friendly, pebble gravel. I did have to walk the bike up in two sections because of traction.

I can say the Performance line would truly rock. So not sure of all these spreadsheet and there meaning. anyway if it helps, here is more info on my ride:

http://electricbikereview.com/community/threads/my-first-hardcore-ride.1702/

I looked at the KTM web site. Do you have the Schwable Rocket Ron tires? What were the tires inflated to?

The bike is a hardtail, not full suspension, right?

Where did you buy the bike?

 

[NoDTMF]

Yes they are Rocket Ron tires. If my pump is accurate, front and back are 48 lbs psi. Bike is hard tail...bought it for commuting (originally, but I'm quite impressed with the trail riding). I use (and love) a Thrudbuster to compensate.

I live in the Santa Cruz mountains (CA,USA) and got the bike from Motostrano bikes in redwood city. It is a 2014, and it was a demo bike. KTM has not brought ebikes into US yet. Being a 2014 it only has the Bosch Active line (48nm of torque, I think)). After my hill climbs I can bet the Performance line would totally rock...probably at the expense of battery. but I still had 2 bars of battery left....and to be honest, I would have like have barely a bar and the extra torque.

BTW this discussion, I think is about motors and not bike frames...otherwise I would in trouble since this is the Haibike forum

 

[Mike leroy]

Yes they are Rocket Ron tires. If my pump is accurate, front and back are 48 lbs psi. Bike is hard tail...bought it for commuting (originally, but I'm quite impressed with the trail riding). I use (and love) a Thrudbuster to compensate.

I live in the Santa Cruz mountains (CA,USA) and got the bike from Motostrano bikes in redwood city. It is a 2014, and it was a demo bike. KTM has not brought ebikes into US yet. Being a 2014 it only has the Bosch Active line (48nm of torque, I think)). After my hill climbs I can bet the Performance line would totally rock...probably at the expense of battery. but I still had 2 bars of battery left....and to be honest, I would have like have barely a bar and the extra torque.

BTW this discussion, I think is about motors and not bike frames...otherwise I would in trouble since this is the Haibike forum

Have you lowered PSI closer to 20 for traction?

OK, I created the spreadsheets. Just a way to compare a long list of features, on a scale from 1 to 5. Intended for people buying, rather than owning a bike. Does that clarify ?

 

[NoDTMF]

I had them as low as 30lbs. Traction is better but I do notice a different in rolling resitance. And to be honest I forgot to air down on my big ride. However, since the ride down was so hard and fast I'm glad I was aired up...the front wheel was taking quite a beating.

BTW, I'm reading all these other forums since no one has a KTM bikes :-( And I am having trouble understanding peoples metrics. My research was fairly simple. I wanted the capability to ride off-road, I wanted range, simple maintenance, and lightweight. That directed me to mid-drive versus hub. As for the quality of components, well stuff breaks and then I'll upgrade. I have no idea of the quality of the components on my bike other than they are not bad. Shifting is precise (and its nice only having one shifter), braking is amazing, the front fork could use better rebound. As for the bike, the geometry feels good and the mating of the Bosch system was done well (no chain jams, derails, etc)

Also nobody seems to notice that this bike is electric. I passed some guy going up a hill and he asked what drugs I was taking! If I wasn't commuting to work, I might get full suspension, but I like having a rack on the back. The seat post suspension units work well, I have Thrudbuster, and apparently there is even a better unit by some other company as well.

I think the spreadsheets are good, but very analytical, some how they need to convey feeling (oh god I sound like my wife) For example full-suspension vs hardtail is very tough decision that requires more than a spreadsheet.

 

[stevenast]

requires more than a spreadsheet

You nailed it there!!/\

 

[Mike leroy]

I had them as low as 30lbs. Traction is better but I do notice a different in rolling resitance. And to be honest I forgot to air down on my big ride. However, since the ride down was so hard and fast I'm glad I was aired up...the front wheel was taking quite a beating.

BTW, I'm reading all these other forums since no one has a KTM bikes :-( And I am having trouble understanding peoples metrics. My research was fairly simple. I wanted the capability to ride off-road, I wanted range, simple maintenance, and lightweight. That directed me to mid-drive versus hub. As for the quality of components, well stuff breaks and then I'll upgrade. I have no idea of the quality of the components on my bike other than they are not bad. Shifting is precise (and its nice only having one shifter), braking is amazing, the front fork could use better rebound. As for the bike, the geometry feels good and the mating of the Bosch system was done well (no chain jams, derails, etc)

Also nobody seems to notice that this bike is electric. I passed some guy going up a hill and he asked what drugs I was taking! If I wasn't commuting to work, I might get full suspension, but I like having a rack on the back. The seat post suspension units work well, I have Thrudbuster, and apparently there is even a better unit by some other company as well.

I think the spreadsheets are good, but very analytical, some how they need to convey feeling (oh god I sound like my wife) For example full-suspension vs hardtail is very tough decision that requires more than a spreadsheet.

Some people like to carry a pump to adjust PSI. Have you ever tried Kings Mountain Road? That is a lot of fun, but I have found bicycles and motorcycles wrapped around redwood trees on K.M. Trail. Adusting PSI on roads like that can give you more traction in the hairy sections.

 

[Kaldeem]

If you can run up a 10% grade with 35 lbs of groceries, than any e-bike with a minimum of 45-60 NM of torque should do just fine for you. I can't see justifying spending 10k for the M1 or a stealth if all you need to do get groceries? s*it, the M1 costs more than the house I just bought.

How far is your work? Can you drive at all or do you just want to be a cyclist? IMO and in all honesty, if I had the cash to blow I'd probably get the St2 for my commute, the Xduro Fs for off roading and a Stealth Bomber for s*it's and giggles; but if that isn't the case, most any sub 5k bike should do perfectly for your needs.

 

[Mike leroy]

If you can run up a 10% grade with 35 lbs of groceries, than any e-bike with a minimum of 45-60 NM of torque should do just fine for you. I can't see justifying spending 10k for the M1 or a stealth if all you need to do get groceries? s*it, the M1 costs more than the house I just bought.

How far is your work? Can you drive at all or do you just want to be a cyclist? IMO and in all honesty, if I had the cash to blow I'd probably get the St2 for my commute, the Xduro Fs for off roading and a Stealth Bomber for s*it's and giggles; but if that isn't the case, most any sub 5k bike should do perfectly for your needs.

I want to get rid of my gas car. My friend tried an eBike, but it did not work well in the hills. He bought a $4000 Honda FSX150 scooter instead. A 45mph, 10kW gas motor that gets 100+ mpg. The trips over 10 miles were cumbersome on eBike due to traffic.

I feel I need a 35mph eMotorBike. I do not want to go as high as a 10kW scooter. I prefer to get the exercise. My fallback is to put the bike on the bus or train. Ideally, take Amtrak on Friday nights to Oregon. Wake up on the Pacific Crest Trail. Pedal to Portland over the weekend. Take the train back on Sunday afternoon. Pedal to work on Monday morning.

A light bike is important. Li-ion LFP chemistry is the best fit because it is the lightest, has the greatest power and fastest recharging of the Lio-ion batteries. The same battery is used in Mercedes and Cessna planes. M1 is one of the few bikes that uses LFP chemistry.

 

[Kaldeem]

What ebikes have you actually test road? What did you like/dislike about those particular ebikes?