False marketing for motor power on rad power bikes?

rjohnson

New Member
I came across this from a lawyer firm, apparently rad power is using a motor that they say is more powerful than then motor manufacturer says? It says on rad power website that motor on the radcity and radwagon is 750w, but motor manufacturer who makes this motor says it's max 500w. Anyone else heard about this??

Here's the link:
https://radpowerbikes.gallo.law/

This is the motor that they list is being used on some of their bikes, it does indeed say 500W max power: http://www.syimotor.com/product_3-2.html
 
Although Shengyi advertises 500w max it can easily be rated at 750w with the controller using 15A with the stock 48v battery so in order for this suit to gain traction that would need to be checked.

Rad is ultimately responsible for the motor’s and back them with what appears to be excellent after sale support. Whether Shengyi backs Rad if motors fail running at higher than max rating that is between them.

Rad is a multi million dollar business and this seems to be a play to get some $$ and I don’t see much in that link that will lead to that.
 
There's videos on utube dealing with that and a guy tests them and compares the motor to 500 and even 350 watt motors from the same manufacturer, they're interesting to say the least.
 
Although Shengyi advertises 500w max it can easily be rated at 750w with the controller using 15A with the stock 48v battery so in order for this suit to gain traction that would need to be checked.

Exactly, any motor can be operated above it's stated ratings and it won't hurt the motor as long as it doesn't overheat.
 
Wow he went to a Chinese web site and didn't find what he was looking for. We all know how accurate Chinese web sites are. Money grubbing law firm. Please don't give this guy any ammunition to go after Rad over something so frivolous. Motor companies will make you any motor you want. And what you want is yours sometimes and not available to the public.
 
Although Shengyi advertises 500w max it can easily be rated at 750w with the controller using 15A with the stock 48v battery so in order for this suit to gain traction that would need to be checked.

Rad is ultimately responsible for the motor’s and back them with what appears to be excellent after sale support. Whether Shengyi backs Rad if motors fail running at higher than max rating that is between them.

Rad is a multi million dollar business and this seems to be a play to get some $$ and I don’t see much in that link that will lead to that.
The fact that the motor is rated at 500W certainly raises questions no matter if Rad decides to run higher current through it and call it 750W. Cause Rad does not manufacture the motor. Shengyi does. Certainly reaching for comment from Rad as well as Shengyi on why they are using a 500W rated motor and calling it 750W should not be out of the ordinary.
 
When somebody questions wattage ratings, they're going to need some pretty sophisticated equipment, engineering, and really deep pockets to back them up, as well as a reputation for accuracy. Otherwise they have no more say than you or I. All they can do is make a bunch of noise, which will likely be ignored.

I believe that's the big reason we'll see very little government interference/enforcement regarding "legal" wattage. They can put a number on what is "legal", but I'll be surprised if we see any action regarding illegal sales. To have a leg to stand on, they're going to need some proof that may be difficult to get.

As far as Rad selling bikes rated higher than the motor manf's, until we see a bunch of burnt up motors (or other components), I think they'll be in good shape. When you look at the LED display while underway, it's pretty obvious the motors are pulling the wattage Rad has them rated for, maybe a little extra. Who's to say the Rad didn't do extensive testing on these and decide they could put their own number on them - as installed in a Rad. Who's to say that Shengyi didn't rate the motors conservatively, with worst case scenario's in mind? In either case, you'll play hell proving one side or the other wrong.

My thoughts anyway, FWIW.
 
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The fact that the motor is rated at 500W certainly raises questions no matter if Rad decides to run higher current through it and call it 750W. Cause Rad does not manufacture the motor. Shengyi does. Certainly reaching for comment from Rad as well as Shengyi on why they are using a 500W rated motor and calling it 750W should not be out of the ordinary.

On an online forum perhaps but a law suit seems frivolous to me.
 
I am personal friends with Neumotors a US based motor company out of San diego. Motor factories rate their motors at a conservative rating to keep them together for long term. If a customer wants a higher rated motor, they can do that too by different windings, stator lengths, weaker or stronger magnets. They can also slap a sticker on a motor because the motor ratings are what they say they are. There is no test to prove "motor ratings"
The 500 watt rating might also be there to satisfy European max motor ratings. These motors could very well be capable of a 1000 watts. The fact that you don't see any motor failings from Rad customers says the motors are within there specs. Since Rad is a large motor customer, it stands to reason that they custom ordered the motors they wanted to their specs, so I think this lawyer is fighting a losing battle. I just hope Rad doesn't pay this lawyer a dime.
 
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Although Shengyi advertises 500w max it can easily be rated at 750w with the controller using 15A with the stock 48v battery so in order for this suit to gain traction that would need to be checked.

Rad is ultimately responsible for the motor’s and back them with what appears to be excellent after sale support. Whether Shengyi backs Rad if motors fail running at higher than max rating that is between them.

Rad is a multi million dollar business and this seems to be a play to get some $$ and I don’t see much in that link that will lead to that.

The real challenge with this scenario, is that people buying this ebike on-line, have no idea what they are really getting if they haven't test ridden it, and so until they receive it they wont know if the power is sufficient for their needs. If they then try it out versus a true 750 Watt motor ebike, versus theirs, and find out how comparatively weaker it is they might be disappointed. That said, usually a 350 watt or 500 watt internally geared hub drive is plenty sufficient for most riding situations. So Rad is probably fine getting away with how they rate it. In otherwords, The ebike will work and most won't know the difference. Direct drives like Shengyi builds are rather inexpensive to manufacture in large quantities, so it is a pretty good marketing tactic to simply offer the highest rating allowed on the streets, and then price the ebike rather inexpensively. Its hard to argue that its not a decent ebike for the price they offer.

I have had several of these Rad's in my shop for repairs, and one customer who owned one (Rad City), decided to try out 3 other brands in my shop since he had bought the Rad without ever trying anything else, each with 350 watt, 500 watt, and 750 watt. Every single one of these he tried, he said felt more powerful than his Rad with a "750" watt. He asked me a lot of questions about direct drive versus IG motors, and after that, he said while he felt he got a reasonable price for Rad, he was convinced it was nothing close to a true "750 Watt" motor. (he was however shocked by the power of the 350 watt - interestingly that 350 watt ebike was $100 more than his Rad.) I have also ridden a couple Rad's since then (cargo, city, and fat tire), and they do seem slower to accelerate, and simply don't compare to most 500 watt hub drives that I have ridden. Rad doesn't state the torque, but I have seen on same Shengyi direct drive motors, rating of only 45 nm.

The other difference people will find, is that for the same sized battery (i.e. 48Volt and 14 AH), they will likely get less range using the Rad 750 watt motor, versus what they would with another typical 500 watt IG motor, since on average the 750 watt will draw more kwhr's/mile under the same riding conditions. the Rad's are also fairly heavy ebikes, and that can make a difference too. I was sort of surprised to hear one customer say he only got about 38 miles of range with a 14 AH battery on his Rad City. He said he road with his dad one time, and his dad weighed about 35 lbs more than he does, and his dad was riding a Magnum Ui6, and his dad still had about a 1/3rd of his battery capacity left, when they both went 36 miles, with hills mixed in, and his battery on his Rad completely died. he claimed both were charged overnight and full when they departed. He said he didn't use anything higher than on level 2 assist. His dad road with level 3, since he was not in as good of physical shape. The Ui6 comes with a 13.5 AH battery.

I think many forum commenters have said previously, you shouldn't really go by what is advertised in terms of motor ratings, at least in terms of watt output. Each can be paired with different size controllers, be designed with different torque ratings, and can feel entirely different depending upon the cassette used, drive train and whether direct drive or IG. Personally I doubt Rad has anything to worry about in terms of their ratings.
 
There is no way to quantify a motors rating on the sticker. It doesn't matter how the bikes power feels. A geared motor will feel more torque than a DD. Motors keep working right up to the point that they don't. Motor manufacturers pick a point under the point that it failed. What point they pick can vary and be subjective. Saying a bike with 350 watt geared motors power feels stronger is kind of irrelevant and not proof that a DD motors rating is false. This tool is fishing and trying to find a way to go after a big fish.
 
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If you're going to compare a 350w to a 750w, to get any useful data, you're going to need to consider more than just the wattage ratings. For starters you're going to need to understand that a motor with a gear reduction is going to have a serious advantage over a direct drive when getting the bike moving from a stop, at relatively low speeds, or climbing a grade at reletively slow speeds. The direct drive will start showing it's stuff when the gear drive is running out of steam. A direct drive with a larger diameter motor (like you see in the 1000w and up DD's) will have enough low end grunt to begin competing well with the smaller gear drives too....

Then there's the controllers. The "soft start" controller that applies power smoothly whether you want it like that or not (like Rad uses) is going to "feel" a lot different than a controller that gives the motor the power you tell it to. If you want a bunch at once you get it!
 
The fact that the motor is rated at 500W certainly raises questions no matter if Rad decides to run higher current through it and call it 750W. Cause Rad does not manufacture the motor. Shengyi does. Certainly reaching for comment from Rad as well as Shengyi on why they are using a 500W rated motor and calling it 750W should not be out of the ordinary.

I actually also think this should be clarified because it doesn't seem clear, if the motor is rated 500W than it is not a 750W motor I would think. I'm comparing with some other brands right now and would want a strong motor that is actually rated 750W motor, can manufacturers just say whatever they want about motor power and they don't need to prove it? I would be pretty upset if I bought a bike that the company says is 750W but it's actually 500W.

As far as I understand, the watt that the display is showing is simply input to the motor, which would be 720W if a 15A controller and 48V battery is used (48x15=720), but if the motor has a rated output of 500W then that should be classified as a 500W motor I would think. It seems like it's been marketed as a 750W motor since the introduction of the models some years ago, so would want to now if any modifications was done to the motor at that point. Is there a owner out there that can show what it says on the motor? Is there a model number on the motor?
 
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I've never seen or heard of a Rover that wasn't geared.
 
If you're going to compare a 350w to a 750w, to get any useful data, you're going to need to consider more than just the wattage ratings. For starters you're going to need to understand that a motor with a gear reduction is going to have a serious advantage over a direct drive when getting the bike moving from a stop, at relatively low speeds, or climbing a grade at reletively slow speeds. The direct drive will start showing it's stuff when the gear drive is running out of steam. A direct drive with a larger diameter motor (like you see in the 1000w and up DD's) will have enough low end grunt to begin competing well with the smaller gear drives too....

Then there's the controllers. The "soft start" controller that applies power smoothly whether you want it like that or not (like Rad uses) is going to "feel" a lot different than a controller that gives the motor the power you tell it to. If you want a bunch at once you get it!

On the Rad, could you switch to a different controller that would give you more "juice"?
 
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