Extra "Yamaha" Battery- US Aftermarket

[bob armani]

800$ for a 36v battery with only 500wh ?? That’s such a big rip off....and with shipping will probably amount to ~ 850$.



A Stomer 986wh pack, 48volts is 1.2k and that’s a high end quality pack.
Another example- my own- BH - A top ebike manufacturer , has a 605wh pack, 48v -750$ -this is also a high end battery pack with 2year warranty.



For a 36v max. Should be 350-400$. Unfortunately a lot of customers are not educated about the ebike technology and many companies are basically ripping people off and colluding to have the prices artificially high.


A 36 v battery cell is 3$. 35cells in the 500wh pack is 105$. Add Bms and a couple of wires.
Then add a 6-700$ profit. Nice reciepe for corporate greed !! Congratulations ?.

It is probably no different than (for example) what the drug companies are doing with inflating prices on the same drugs found in other countries at a fraction of the cost.

Those are good comparisons for battery costs, however the 36V batteries at $400 is probably for rebuilds or repacking. The only problem with repacking is the difficulty with shipping Hazmat or DG goods. The shipper has to be certified to package and ship your battery to the repacking company.

 

[feuerwehr7]

I just contacted some suppliers at Alibaba.com and none of them are able to supply a 36v battery for the haibike/Yamaha. Does anybody may have a source? Wonder if some shop or supplier would give some discount for a group buy?

 

[tomjasz]

Lots of Chinese batteries will brag about sourcing Samsung, LG, or Panasonic cells.

There are brand name cell manufacturers in China. China does produce excellent cells. The anecdotes about Japan and S Korea are just that. Unconfirmed internet stories. My acquaintance at Cali Bike has sold many generic packs. I sold many o the same. When they were good they were great, but 3% could have issues. Usually BMS problems.

My biggest objection isn't over where they are made but how they are warranteed. Often the resellers, after many emails, will send a new BMS. Changing out a BMS can be easy, but most packs aren't designed to be repaired and can be difficult repairs, at best!

I'll sing my same song, ALWAYS order a spare BMS when buying from these unknown suppliers.

I would wager there are CanBus communication protocols in play with the Yamaha that would require only Yamaha approved batteries with a BMS that supports them

Thanks for your opinion. Have you found any documentation regarding their batteries?

 

[tomjasz]

I would wager there are CanBus communication protocols in play

Indeed there appears to be. A single gray wire in addition to Pos and Neg. Regardless the system has peeked my interest. An amazingly clearly written manual is a huge plus. The addition of self diagnoses and clear error codes makes kit drives almost rudimentary.
https://www.wheeler.ch/fileadmin/wheeler/img/yamaha/Service-Manual-DriveUnit-Display-ENG.pdf

 

[tomjasz]

A NO GO FOR ME,

in case you want to build your own.
Just get a Arduino compatible board and a few discrete components.

Add a 5V source, i usually use a LM2596HV dc dc converter for this. A USB powerbank or even running it from two or three Cells on the pack (VIN pin of the arduino) will work.

Optional: To monitor the voltage add a voltage divider set to a ratio of 7.401 (42v in 5v out) and connect it to the A0 pin of the Arduino.

Edit this code https://pastebin.com/34SdehGt
>Edit line 35 to match your voltage divider. calculate or test to find out ADC values.
>Change line 44 and 45 (the number 20) to a value you want. 20 means it averages the current voltage 20 times to smooth it out. 20 is 5 seconds.
>Remove line 50 if you dont want your indicator to stay at 10% even if its lower. this prevent turning the motor off when voltage drops driving up a hill.

After that, Flash it in Arduino IDE

Wire it up like this.

Some people including me allready did it to the haibikes, works great. See german pedelecforum.
If its too much for you, a guy called Cosas in pedelecforum is selling modules based off my code that does exactly this, basically dongles you put on the Battery connector and can connect any ordinary 36V Battery onto it.

 

[Dmitri]

If its too much for you, a guy called Cosas in pedelecforum is selling modules based off my code that does exactly this, basically dongles you put on the Battery connector and can connect any ordinary 36V Battery onto it.

Just to add to this, I purchased such a module from Cosas in Germany, built my 36V battery and can confirm that it does, in fact, work.

 

[AZOldTech]

Just to add to this, I purchased such a module from Cosas in Germany, built my 36V battery and can confirm that it does, in fact, work.

I'd appreciate a link to that Cosas guy in Germany to purchase one. Thanks.

 

[Dmitri]

I'd appreciate a link to that Cosas guy in Germany to purchase one. Thanks.

Here you go: link.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Ravi over in the Yamaha forum reports of a new 745wh battery and charger available for to replace the 400 and 500wh external Yamaha batteries. Sounds and looks promising. Tried contact the company asking if they have plans in selling to US distributors, but I got a message back in German that did not address my questions. To be continued, I guess. But 745wh is a big deal and it's nice to see somebody addressing the external battery powered older bikes out there when it seems the bike manufacturers and Yamaha themselves seem to have forgotten about us after the sales transaction was made complete......

745Whr replacement batteries + 7A charger from E-bike Vision

I was happy to see that a company is offering higher Ah battery replacements for Yamaha and Bosch powered E-bikes. For Yamaha - PW, PW-Se, PW-TE and PW-X systems are compatible. It is a straight swap and you get 745whr battery instead of 500whr. It goes where the frame mounted batteries go but...

electricbikereview.com

 

[EMGX]

Hello, I joined this forum specifically in regard to the proprietary Yamaha battery issue. I recently picked up a Easy Motion Gravel X with the Yamaha PW motor and the 400wh battery, only done two rides so far of 35 miles and 46 miles with elevation gain totals in both rides from over 2,000ft to over 3,000ft. I pedaled pretty hard, for me, on both rides and had 3 out of 10 bars left at the end of each ride. I gather that the battery capacity should improve as it becomes conditioned. I'm good with the battery function for the most part but want to do some touring next spring and summer where the stock battery alone won't support an entire day's ride the way I would like it to. It is a nice bike but without the battery to help, especially with climbing, it is a heavy 42lb bike to pedal, plus gear. I see aliexpress has compatible 500+ wh batteries for ~$300 plus shipping vs $1,000+ for a Yamaha proprietary battery. However I have a new 36v 540wh battery with BMS that I got to try out a geared hub motor that I've had for several years but never really used until very recently. I see mention of an arduino based dongle to make an aftermarket battery work with the Yamaha but not specific enough information regarding exact components and assembly that would allow me to make one nor a source to buy a functional dongle. If I understand correctly the middle battery connection is an outgoing data port only - I'm curious if a not totally discharged Yamaha battery is connected to the data connection and ground connection (but not the positive connection) while the aftermarket battery is connected at the positive connection and the ground, would the Yamaha motor then work off of the aftermarket battery? I'm not concerned if the display information wouldn't be accurate, only if it would allow the motor to draw current from the aftermarket battery. I realize that probably the only way to find out is to try but thought I would ask if anyone has gotten around the data port issue, or even have purchased a dongle and if so how/where they got it and how much they paid for it.

Thanks

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I don't believe there is anyone on this forum who has experimented battery swaps on their Yamaha drive for an incompatible aftermarket battery and "dongle".

I'm kinda of the mind to let others put their expensive, proprietary Yamaha drive systems at risk with these experiments; should they succeed, hey, that's one more alternative for me to consider when the need for more wh arises! And should it fail, well, what's that saying? "Better you then me!"

I picked up two 500wh batteries over the summer of 2019 to augment my own 400wh original Yamaha battery. Meanwhile, a German battery business called E-Bike Vision has made compatible Yamaha drive batteries, including a 745wh battery.

Reading up a year, two years ago about those other aftermarket allegedly Yamaha batteries for sale on alibaba or what have you, the ebiker did not have any long term success using them; by what I've read on the UK and DE pedelec forums.

The drive system is so proprietary, internal parts (aside from bearings) are non-existent, that it's just not worth any risk but to stick with a known battery with a real track record backing it up.

 

[EMGX]

I did some more reading on the UK and German forums (thanks to google translate). It sounds like experience with the aftermarket batteries is hit and miss so I don't think I would go that route. From what I understood the OEM battery can fairly easily be irreparably damaged I don't think I will try experimenting by hooking up the OEM battery data port and ground pins while connecting my aftermarket battery to the + and - pins (although I did read one post where the author seemed to indicate he did this and it worked). After reading the German forum the arduino "dongle" seems doable so I ordered an arduino clone starter kit, it was cheap and if it doesn't work with the aftermarket battery I will have the kit to play around with. After all the description indicates "This Kit is suitable for 10-year-old and up. Younger kids should be under supervision and guidance of adults."

 

[TomD]

@EMGX, sounds like your gravel bike may have the PW-SE motor. While researching the SE I came across this site. Seems like he is developing his own dongle. Way above my head but not sure if you saw it:

Yamaha mid-drive motor dongle to use 3rd party batteries

Here, I share technical solutions that arised during the development of my solar-bike.

www.avdweb.nl

 

[EMGX]

@EMGX, sounds like your gravel bike may have the PW-SE motor. While researching the SE I came across this site. Seems like he is developing his own dongle. Way above my head but not sure if you saw it:

Yamaha mid-drive motor dongle to use 3rd party batteries

Here, I share technical solutions that arised during the development of my solar-bike.

www.avdweb.nl

Thanks, I saw that also. It looks like he copied what the Germans reported with their arduino dongle. I already programmed a arduino clone but haven't tried it out yet. It sounds technical but it wasn't difficult to do. Arduino microcontrollers and software are basically children's learning tools. I hope it works. I don't know if the motor is a SE of not but it works great for me and the bike is light enough that I sometimes ride without the battery.



clone

 

[TomD]

Yes, if your bike came with the smaller display it's a PW-SE. To verify you can check to see if the motor has the red logo. Someone on my hiking forum confirmed with the Bicycle Blue Book seller it's the PW-X display and SE motor.