E-bike Controllers - ASK Anything - Interview with a leading controller company

[Ravi Kempaiah]

[Edit-1] Please see the videos below.
[Edit-2] Part-2, deep dive interview has been released.

We are meeting with one of the leading E-bike controller companies (Accelerated Systsems Inc) on Tuesday (11th October), and we would have an opportunity to sit with their technical product manager and founder for an extended interview.
Zen has been building prototypes with ASI controllers, and ASI has been building controllers for other leading brands like Stromer.
and provided the control system architecture for the Grin Technologies Phase runner controller.

Please feel free to post any questions that you may have regarding E-bike controllers, and we will include them in the interview questions.
So far, we have compiled the following questions from Zen customers and friends

1. What differentiates ASI from other companies such as Lishui, KT controllers etc?
2. What is the benefit of a true FOC - field-oriented control in E-bike controllers?
3. How does the quality of MOSFETS affect the performance?
4. Some controllers have 9 or 12 MOSFETS and some only 6 and what makes a truly great E-bike controller?
5. Can we have a universal operating system for E-bike controllers so millions of E-bikes can be salvaged and used for a long time?
6. Anything else from EBR readers and enthusiasts ...

 

[tomjasz]

What other display options besides Grin?

 

[kevinmccune]

This may be a bit off,I am wondering if the "Headlight circuit on a "KT" controller will handle a 17 watt LED headlight? the light can take a voltage range up to 60 volts I believe( I am thinking the light will draw around 3 amps.

 

[AHicks]

This may be a bit off,I am wondering if the "Headlight circuit on a "KT" controller will handle a 17 watt LED headlight? the light can take a voltage range up to 60 volts I believe( I am thinking the light will draw around 3 amps.

Keep checking around, but I'm pretty sure you're going to find that KT light circuit is good for less than 1/2 an amp. .3a is the rating stuck in my head....

 

[AHicks]

Ravi, I appreciate the chance to reply here. My experience is with the KT controllers, as well as the UART based Bafang mid drive controllers.

These both offer me the ability to set up POWER based PAS ("imitation torque control") where speed has no effect on the power to the motor (based on PAS level). For both myself and others that have used it, we wonder why this setup isn't more popular with the bike manfs, as compared to the speed based PAS? This has a big effect on the bike's low speed control, allowing good control over speeds at and slightly above a walking pace.

Something I would bring up might be an interface of some type where torque sensing could be installed as an option. We both know how easy the sensor could be installed, but the controllers have no interface able to handle the input.

And last, I would ask the manfs to understand/accept the idea not all rider's priorities will be the same - or even close in may cases. I get how a rookie might be startled by having full available power from a start, but there are those of us faced with the need/potential for crossing busy roads as quickly as possible for instance. There is a HUGE need for some parameter customization to be available on SOME level. Locked down controllers are not cutting it.....

Thanks! -Al

 

[kevinmccune]

Keep checking around, but I'm pretty sure you're going to find that KT light circuit is good for less than 1/2 an amp. .3a is the rating stuck in my head....

Thank you, I guess I will just try to grab some battery juice directly.

 

[indianajo]

I had an ASI controller melt the pins into the wire harness of a matching hub motor in a rainstorm. Destroyed both permanently. Picture: https://www.ebay.com/itm/255146345103?hash=item3b67e8428f:g:NMQAAOSwsDdgtrXI&amdata=enc:AQAHAAAAoB67n8HvYrudgLQ0YhctG2MPOLDn+f5pvzPLQ/beuYD41iGzwaEM0k1grOYtti+Ci35cPiJNMLq8F2OE2afLdyjStHyFc/34vrXrFDpQdPfTnHIShN9FkqQF1Up12wuV4mO3juC4BUdXuKcvx0kiTxFchqY0DNkLgor6OatX+vAKzNj61TOrmMKHqtffAKcdAjKECy9HRYbdmr6CPrp2s8E=|tkp:Bk9SR47Mgpz4YA IMHO the tiny pin spacing was not sufficient to withstand rain. The controller was shielded from rain from above by the 5" wide battery case and below by a plastic fender. The +48 feed was protected by an external 30 amp AG3 fuse. I recommend to all posters considering a hub motor conversion, to not buy an ASI controller.
I've had no trouble in the same environment with controllers with .157" bullet connectors on the phase wires and a white block with insertable pins for the hall effect sensors. The display version had a black 5 pin block to the display. Those controllers were mounted under the seat.

 

[kevinmccune]

Keep checking around, but I'm pretty sure you're going to find that KT light circuit is good for less than 1/2 an amp. .3a is the rating stuck in my head....

Well the way it is working out I decided to get some 60xt parallel plug ins that way I can have a dedicated accessory circuit, it will be easy to hide because the way I had to mount the controller was on top of the 15 AH rack battery,I am planning on getting the largest plastic ammo box or whatever and cutting out the bottom enough to slip over the controller and actually have a bit of storage,I have done this before on a 36 volt build actually worked pretty good( on an old trek bike), this step thru donor bike looks good OTH it has hardly any place to hang or mount anything, it will be a front- drive with regen.Rode through my 16 mile loop last night after dark in my pickup, the trail riders have trashed this road, I think I am going to ride it one more time before cold weather tomorrow morning after the sun comes up and the frost melts.
The two ready made bikes I have are probably going to last me out, the 750 watt one is crazy powerful, but it sucks the battery quick, the full suspension 500 watt one is kind of a sweetheart, the 15 ah battery it has still shows 5 bars after OI complete the 16 mile loop, will havee to replace the rear tire though that rough road chewed it up pretty quickly, thats no problem I have a 2.4 Maxxus "Holy roller' that I plan to install after I work on the back brakes( going to a 180 MM disc so I can reach the adjustment without removing the wheel, I didn't think I would like those cast wheels, now I love the darn things".It turned out I was able to mount the 17 watt LED on the fender mount on the "gateway" donor bike and its solid,I have the PAS installed,etc,I used the little LCD panel with power and assist buttons on the port side, trying to keep the cockpit uncluttered, the cruiser bar I got for it will not work so I just went back to the "BMX" style bar, with all that juice at my disposal I might put a real loud horn on it.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Ravi, I appreciate the chance to reply here. My experience is with the KT controllers, as well as the UART based Bafang mid drive controllers.

These both offer me the ability to set up POWER based PAS ("imitation torque control") where speed has no effect on the power to the motor (based on PAS level). For both myself and others that have used it, we wonder why this setup isn't more popular with the bike manfs, as compared to the speed based PAS? This has a big effect on the bike's low speed control, allowing good control over speeds at and slightly above a walking pace.

Something I would bring up might be an interface of some type where torque sensing could be installed as an option. We both know how easy the sensor could be installed, but the controllers have no interface able to handle the input.

And last, I would ask the manfs to understand/accept the idea not all rider's priorities will be the same - or even close in may cases. I get how a rookie might be startled by having full available power from a start, but there are those of us faced with the need/potential for crossing busy roads as quickly as possible for instance. There is a HUGE need for some parameter customization to be available on SOME level. Locked down controllers are not cutting it.....

Thanks! -Al

Thanks, Al.
We will include this in the interview.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

We had an hour-long interview with ASI.
We will post the full interview in a few days.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Couple of snippets from the video before we release it next week.
We talked about the essential requirements and the technology that goes into a great E-bike controller.

 

[Ebiker01]

Why are they so complex to program and can they make the programming FREE ??

Considering Asi Bac 800 x 2 for a low powered 2x5kw flying prototype Esystem.

 

[AHicks]

Why are they so complex to program and can they make the programming FREE ??

Considering Asi Bac 800 x 2 for a low powered 2x5kw flying prototype Esystem.

I have no clue when it comes to ASI stuff, but on the why does it need to be so complex, as one familiar with the Bafang Ultra programming, I feel it's pretty safe to say there's a LOT going on in there!! Worse, there's a lot of interwoven variables, where when you change one, it can/will affect others.

What will make ASI controllers really valuable, is a user interface that helps simplify all this, and access to the parts of the programming that most users can put to good use....

 

[tomjasz]

Why are they so complex to program and can they make the programming FREE ??

Considering Asi Bac 800 x 2 for a low powered 2x5kw flying prototype Esystem.

What will make ASI controllers really valuable, is a user interface that helps simplify all this, and access to the parts of the programming that most users can put to good use....

If we want more features and to tweak parameters, then expect some level of complexity. But really it’s not all that difficult. See eBikes.ca manuals…

https://ebikes.ca/pub/media/downloadable/documents/BaserunnerV4_Manual_Rev1.0.pdf

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

We visited a leading E-bike controller manufacturing company - Accelerated Systsems Inc., in Waterloo, Ontario, and discussed all things E-bike controllers. We are working with ASI for our Zen E-bikes controllers, and ASI also supplies controllers to companies like Stromer, Super73, and certain iGo and Rad Power Bikes models. Part 2 of this series involves a detailed discussion of E-bike controllers.

 

[AHicks]

Interesting. This guy is clearly on top of his game. The question remains though, can he do us any good with a generic e-bike controller. One that's adaptable enough to replace some of the junk now coming from the OEM's?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Interesting. This guy is clearly on top of his game. The question remains though, can he do us any good with a generic e-bike controller. One that's adaptable enough to replace some of the junk now coming from the OEM's?

I think you will really like the Part-2 because we delve deeply into controller programming.
ASI has something called BACDoor software that provides access to tune about every parameter to OEMs and even for end-user, it can offer some very useful features.

 

[c2Crusher]

I think you will really like the Part-2 because we delve deeply into controller programming.
ASI has something called BACDoor software that provides access to tune about every parameter to OEMs and even for end-user, it can offer some very useful features.

View attachment 140480

@Ravi Kempaiah

Zen working with very high end companies like Novonix and ASI with an end goal to offer the, "Ultimate E-Bike Experience"!

Is there a chance we will see this new E-Bike Controller and new long life Battery Packs in Zen's 2023 offerings?

 

[AHicks]

Yep, that looks about right! Maybe even a little over the top, but they've set it up with write protections to keep a handle on it. Impressive. I'm sure it will be a mess at first, but as long as the end users don't need to develop their own user manual, or interpret "chinglish" into something more useful, it shouldn't take long for some common setup themes to start showing up - assuming the OEM "tune" isn't "just right" as it comes from the OEM.

Next factor will be motor connector type availability or some sort of adapters for guys unwilling/unable to solder. That sort of thing would put a controller like this right over the top if it were available in several styles.

MANY Thanks Ravi!!

 

[tomjasz]

Next factor will be motor connector type availability or some sort of adapters for guys unwilling/unable to solder.

You're too hopeful I'm afraid. If there were versions tied to display versions, most motors these days have somewhat standardized connections. And many are happy with crimped battery connections. (never here) I've always believed that kit makers would increase sales by making connections universal. The bane of the kitting world, too many connectors. I'm especially nonplused by Rad and their ilk that used the same patterns as Bafang but reversed the male and female sides