Do you think electric bikes should be considered mountain bikes?


@DashRiprock, I'm certainly not trying to say that high-powered e-bikes don't have their place. We're retailers for Stealth bikes and they're nuts. We have some private property around here that is made to shred with those bikes.

However, most of the public and private trail systems where we live are shared systems between trail runners/hikers and MTBers. They're pretty vocal about how they don't care to put up with this (from the Stealth website) on a daily basis:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

However, below is a pic of a very cool couple that rented "legal trail-worthy bicycles" for the day and took on some fairly tough single track trails. In my experience, the legal limit of 750 watts has easily allowed the poor, handicapped and elderly to enjoy their trail access far more than they had before.

renters.jpg
 
Dash,

I see your point - support full access for all and don't take sides and be divided. In reality, I'm do not think full access is ever going to happen. There will always be political/environmental forces that will dictate the pecking order of access and prohibit accordingly. If we classify ourselves (All ebikes) as ATV/dirt bike, like a few purist mnt bikers want, then that is a huge negative. There will be classifications, for sure. I suggested that ebikes remain classified at "bicycles" and specifically as a mtn bike for off road access.

I could be wrong, but I expect any place atv's have permission, mtn bikes already can ride there, but not the reverse? So ebikes already are allowed to experience what atv's can do?

I'm not saying to not advocate for our dirt bike brothers. It can be a blast, and they should have trails to ride too. I'm saying align our classification towards non-motorized vs motorized. It's complicated to say an electric bike is not a motor bike...


I can’t say much good about the Feds. I don’t go to National Parks much anymore. If you don’t see nature the way they see it, you are out of luck. Some Parks are still pretty casual, but they gradually clamp down on everything, everywhere.


People could pull together, but they don’t. Fifteen years ago, I was interested in creating a cheaper form of flying, mostly for recreation. But you had the very loose, but too limited, Ultralight community, and the fancy stuff at the top, where people were throwing money at it. These two groups were not going to agree to take on the Feds, and there were not many new people coming in because no airplane you could do much with was affordable. You need a lot of people to get anything done. Partly that’s reaching across the dividing lines, so the ATV community works with the mountain bikers, at least on the basic ideas of access. But it’s also about generating a lot of energy because a lot of people are coming into the sport, or at least know what is happening and consider it.


I hope the ebike community avoids the situation where they aren’t really working with the other groups who want to use the same facilities. Ebikes cover a lot of ground, so they have links to the road bike group and the MTB group. In both cases, the existing non-powered cyclists are pretty narrow in their focus. The people who ride ATV’s are not that different from the people riding mountain bikes. There’s a lot of passion and intensity in both groups.


I think the ebike community has a problem because ebikes are way too expensive. You just can’t see a family of four going out and buying a set of 4 ebikes all that often. These are the people you want involved, building the community for the future. I think the US standard for ebikes is great, and ebikers should explain that it’s necessary to have a generous standard. People are out of shape. People are overweight. An ebike is the only option. And if you want to make ebikes useful you need to let people use things like trailers. The European standard is horrible. (The Swiss are now close to the US standard.) But I wish the US companies would lay off the over-powered stuff. What we have is too good to mess up, I think. The future for ebikes is probably being sure ebikers are great partners with non-motor cyclists. There’s no logical reason any (legal) ebike should threaten a regular cyclist. It’s basically another body fighting for space or access on the roads or trails, access that benefits everyone. I don’t really like the idea that ebikes should be invisible, blend in and disappear.


Cycling needs more people, and it seems like a lot of those people will come in with an electric bike. It would help if that ‘first’ ebike was really affordable. Either way, you need the numbers. In aviation, they never got the numbers. At the low end, they keep recycling these ancient Cessnas. Basically, the 40 or 50 year old aircraft are still around, and anything brand new tends to run $100 thousand and up. That limits the new people coming in to a tiny segment of the population. At least so far, liability hasn’t been a problem with ebikes. In aviation, something goes wrong and the lawyers are all over it. Between the excess Fed regs, the tiny numbers of aircraft produced, and the lawyers, everything in aviation costs ten times what it should. A basic 100 HP aircraft motor is around $15,000.


It’s clear that there are a lot of things that are broken. In many ways, this country is broken. You need some amped up young people with a passion for this stuff. Ebikes are terrific, especially as a refinement of the bike. The motor is there, but it’s still a bike. But a bike real people can actually use.


I was out on the state highway on my ebike yesterday, wearing jeans and a tee shirt, hiking boots. Had the oxygen tank strapped on my back, the trucks blowing by me at 65. It’s my world, too. You have to believe that. You have to take, or at least lay a claim to, what you think is yours. The Feds will fight...
 
However, most of the public and private trail systems where we live are shared systems between trail runners/hikers and MTBers. They're pretty vocal about how they don't care to put up with this (from the Stealth website) on a daily basis:

(Link Removed - No Longer Exists)

However, below is a pic of a very cool couple that rented "legal trail-worthy bicycles" for the day and took on some fairly tough single track trails. In my experience, the legal limit of 750 watts has easily allowed the poor, handicapped and elderly to enjoy their trail access far more than they had before.

I hope that I'm not sounding argumentative...but they "don't care to put up with..."....what?"
Is the enthusiast above 'jumping over the top' of somebody else on the trail (that we can't see)...or simply running them over? What is trail 'etiquette' (nowadays) anyways? An enthusiast plants themselves at the entrance of an 'x-mile' long path...and then simply 'doesn't look back'...expecting the whole world to follow them like some kind of pied piper? (perhaps 'playing through' is now dead in golf as well, I have no idea). Has the younger generation truly got to the point where 'by gosh I want my world to be perfect...all the time...just like my helicopter parents and teachers promised me it would be?

I have ridden (old fashioned) motorized off road machines my entire life that have only got faster and 'torquier' to the point that many of them are downright scary. Guess what? We shared the trail, often 'putting up with' incidents/near death experiences on a regular basis that would (evidently) drive younger people today into intensive therapy or at least intense 'anger' (which we blew off before the next turn).

We dealt with it. We tried to change behaviors. If that didn't work, fines, or the threat of same usually did. What I can say is that if someone (and I'm not saying that this is you at all and understand that you are only expressing an opinion) 'freaked out' over the latest machine on the market?...he or she was thought of less than kindly or as frankly someone who felt that the entire forest was their personal property.

Just an opinion from 'an old guy' who certainly respects and appreciates yours.
 
I can’t say much good about the Feds. I don’t go to National Parks much anymore. If you don’t see nature the way they see it, you are out of luck. Some Parks are still pretty casual, but they gradually clamp down on everything, everywhere.


People could pull together, but they don’t. Fifteen years ago, I was interested in creating a cheaper form of flying, mostly for recreation. But you had the very loose, but too limited, Ultralight community, and the fancy stuff at the top, where people were throwing money at it. These two groups were not going to agree to take on the Feds, and there were not many new people coming in because no airplane you could do much with was affordable. You need a lot of people to get anything done. Partly that’s reaching across the dividing lines, so the ATV community works with the mountain bikers, at least on the basic ideas of access. But it’s also about generating a lot of energy because a lot of people are coming into the sport, or at least know what is happening and consider it.


I hope the ebike community avoids the situation where they aren’t really working with the other groups who want to use the same facilities. Ebikes cover a lot of ground, so they have links to the road bike group and the MTB group. In both cases, the existing non-powered cyclists are pretty narrow in their focus. The people who ride ATV’s are not that different from the people riding mountain bikes. There’s a lot of passion and intensity in both groups.


I think the ebike community has a problem because ebikes are way too expensive. You just can’t see a family of four going out and buying a set of 4 ebikes all that often. These are the people you want involved, building the community for the future. I think the US standard for ebikes is great, and ebikers should explain that it’s necessary to have a generous standard. People are out of shape. People are overweight. An ebike is the only option. And if you want to make ebikes useful you need to let people use things like trailers. The European standard is horrible. (The Swiss are now close to the US standard.) But I wish the US companies would lay off the over-powered stuff. What we have is too good to mess up, I think. The future for ebikes is probably being sure ebikers are great partners with non-motor cyclists. There’s no logical reason any (legal) ebike should threaten a regular cyclist. It’s basically another body fighting for space or access on the roads or trails, access that benefits everyone. I don’t really like the idea that ebikes should be invisible, blend in and disappear.

Cycling needs more people, and it seems like a lot of those people will come in with an electric bike. It would help if that ‘first’ ebike was really affordable. Either way, you need the numbers. In aviation, they never got the numbers. At the low end, they keep recycling these ancient Cessnas. Basically, the 40 or 50 year old aircraft are still around, and anything brand new tends to run $100 thousand and up. That limits the new people coming in to a tiny segment of the population. At least so far, liability hasn’t been a problem with ebikes. In aviation, something goes wrong and the lawyers are all over it. Between the excess Fed regs, the tiny numbers of aircraft produced, and the lawyers, everything in aviation costs ten times what it should. A basic 100 HP aircraft motor is around $15,000.


It’s clear that there are a lot of things that are broken. In many ways, this country is broken. You need some amped up young people with a passion for this stuff. Ebikes are terrific, especially as a refinement of the bike. The motor is there, but it’s still a bike. But a bike real people can actually use.


I was out on the state highway on my ebike yesterday, wearing jeans and a tee shirt, hiking boots. Had the oxygen tank strapped on my back, the trucks blowing by me at 65. It’s my world, too. You have to believe that. You have to take, or at least lay a claim to, what you think is yours. The Feds will fight...

A lot of good points in there, George. Wish I had the time right now to comment on them all. I owned a powered parachute years ago and can relate to where you're coming from with the aircraft comparison. Amen also to the following:
"..In many ways, this country is broken. You need some amped up young people with a passion.."

Be careful what you wish for...as they may just get all amped up over the folks who broke it while we're still here (I am continually dumbfounded that they haven't already).
 
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