Disappointing maiden ride with 500W ebike
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swissbike
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I am thinking about what J.R. said about having to spend some time learning the idiosyncrasies of a new bike and what WilliamT said about the current bike possibly being quite decent. I do believe that we need a front derailleur but *maybe* that is all. It does sound like a mid-drive would have more torque but would the design compensate for a drop from our current 500W to the 250W that I see on affordable mid-drive models? Maybe not?
The truth is that we have little first-hand data at the moment. The maiden voyage was a disappointment but it is possible that if we get to know the bike a bit better it will work out okay. Perhaps instead of a trailer we could use lighter panniers for transport.
Have to think about this. And to wait for the snow to melt so that we can do some more testing
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I will ask the bike shop why they are recommending that we trade in the bike for these other models. If it is because the hub motors are geared much better than fine. If it is only because they have derailleurs and are slightly lighter then this might not be very compelling.
The truth is that we have little first-hand data at the moment. The maiden voyage was a disappointment but it is possible that if we get to know the bike a bit better it will work out okay. Perhaps instead of a trailer we could use lighter panniers for transport.
Have to think about this. And to wait for the snow to melt so that we can do some more testing
.I will ask the bike shop why they are recommending that we trade in the bike for these other models. If it is because the hub motors are geared much better than fine. If it is only because they have derailleurs and are slightly lighter then this might not be very compelling.
slomoshun
Active Member
From my experiences, a 250 watt mid-drive is not a fast climber but it is an easier climber than a 500 watt geared hub.
Getting to know your existing bike better is not going to improve its performance. I would advise that you arrange test rides before making the final deci$ion. Your requirements are pushing the envelope for an eBike so it might be worth a visit to Endless Sphere. Some of those riders have matched up components that perform like small motorcycles.
Manu
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That company has all hub engines, has no center drive unit designs.
It does not give information on the number of discs or plates and the teeth of each disc, the same with the cassete.you s-pedelec 45 km/h is a 500 watt hub motor but with a single plate, ¿surely placing the chain in the cassette with More teeth have not managed to climb the hill?
¿Surely it was at its maximum assistance from engine hub?
Is the most powerful hub engine that the company has and what it offers is a pedelec hub that is much more limited in speed 25 km / h and 250w engine to put two and three plates and a cassette with some more teeth ....
If you with maximum assistance from engine hub try the crosstour with small tooth plate and large tooth cassette in maximum assistance and can not climb the hill then the invisible one can not do it either.
If you can not get up the hill with the crosstour you need a pedelec s-pedelec with drive unit center.
That company of ebike can not offer it to you, it has no design with drive unit center.Brose, shimano, bosch, yamaha, etc.
pedelec and s-pedelec differ in the kilometers that they can travel in flat terrain, 25km / h and 45 km / h.
It does not give information on the number of discs or plates and the teeth of each disc, the same with the cassete.you s-pedelec 45 km/h is a 500 watt hub motor but with a single plate, ¿surely placing the chain in the cassette with More teeth have not managed to climb the hill?
¿Surely it was at its maximum assistance from engine hub?
Is the most powerful hub engine that the company has and what it offers is a pedelec hub that is much more limited in speed 25 km / h and 250w engine to put two and three plates and a cassette with some more teeth ....
If you with maximum assistance from engine hub try the crosstour with small tooth plate and large tooth cassette in maximum assistance and can not climb the hill then the invisible one can not do it either.
If you can not get up the hill with the crosstour you need a pedelec s-pedelec with drive unit center.
That company of ebike can not offer it to you, it has no design with drive unit center.Brose, shimano, bosch, yamaha, etc.
pedelec and s-pedelec differ in the kilometers that they can travel in flat terrain, 25km / h and 45 km / h.
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swissbike
New Member
Here is one more reflection. Sorry to think aloud so much.
The hill that we live on is 26% steep (or more) and this is probably beyond the limits of our Speedbike and most other e-bikes too. However, this hill is exceptional because it is a small private road with almost no vehicle traffic. The other roads in the region are also fairly steep but the bike actually handled them okay on our initial tests even with the suboptimal gearing and not pedaling too hard.
So it could be that our bike is okay for the region in general, but that we need to forget about riding up the last ~200m to our house, and that we will need to put a derailleur on if we want to carry a load (perhaps more realistically in panniers than with our Thule Chariot.)
There are also long flat stretches around here and so the 500W hub motor does have value even though we are more focused on the hill climbing.
The hill that we live on is 26% steep (or more) and this is probably beyond the limits of our Speedbike and most other e-bikes too. However, this hill is exceptional because it is a small private road with almost no vehicle traffic. The other roads in the region are also fairly steep but the bike actually handled them okay on our initial tests even with the suboptimal gearing and not pedaling too hard.
So it could be that our bike is okay for the region in general, but that we need to forget about riding up the last ~200m to our house, and that we will need to put a derailleur on if we want to carry a load (perhaps more realistically in panniers than with our Thule Chariot.)
There are also long flat stretches around here and so the 500W hub motor does have value even though we are more focused on the hill climbing.
swissbike
New Member
This article on the effective power of hub motors vs mid motors is amazingly awesome: https://www.ebikingnow.com/blog/mid-drive-vs-hub-drive
EDIT: Though it seems like the graph for the mid-drive is with a ~1000W motor? I would like to see how a 250W mid-drive compared with a 500W hub specifically...
EDIT: Though it seems like the graph for the mid-drive is with a ~1000W motor? I would like to see how a 250W mid-drive compared with a 500W hub specifically...
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swissbike
New Member
I actually misread the graphs in the mid-drive-vs-hub-drive article the first time around. I mixed up the torque and the power and thought that the mid-driver was most powerful at the lowest speed. In fact it looks like the power curve is always a parabola but on the mid-drive it can be translated between faster/slower speeds via the gears.
So on a second reading the difference between the mid-drive and the hub-drive look less dramatic. Each one is operating at about half efficiency or less at low speeds like 3-5km/h. However without seeing the actual curve for *our* bike it is hard to evaluate that e.g. if it is designed for high speeds then perhaps its power is much less down at 3-5km/h.
It sure would be nice to replace the planetary gears in the hub to translate the power curve to lower speeds.......?
So on a second reading the difference between the mid-drive and the hub-drive look less dramatic. Each one is operating at about half efficiency or less at low speeds like 3-5km/h. However without seeing the actual curve for *our* bike it is hard to evaluate that e.g. if it is designed for high speeds then perhaps its power is much less down at 3-5km/h.
It sure would be nice to replace the planetary gears in the hub to translate the power curve to lower speeds.......?
Manu
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the s-pedelec.
The other option is to change the cassette to 11-44 teeth and the plate to 33 or 36 teeth and correct the chain length, but that is in warranty and you would lose it.
I'm not sure it works even making those changes
and climb your hill.
the mid-drive cheats a lot because you have attendance levels that can be up to 300% ... designed 250w = assistance level 1 100% + torque or human newton assistance level 2 200% = 500w + torque or human newton level 3 300% = 750w ....... + torque or human newton. a professional cyclist jaime coloma in a sprint can give up to 1000watios human ..... we are amater.
I am 45 years old and I am very amater and my best moments from 20 to 39 years have passed ...
my heart is no longer to hold 30 minutes at 180ppm
if I want a cardiac stop this is the way to 180 bpm,
and with a cigar in his mouth
The other option is to change the cassette to 11-44 teeth and the plate to 33 or 36 teeth and correct the chain length, but that is in warranty and you would lose it.
I'm not sure it works even making those changes
and climb your hill.
the mid-drive cheats a lot because you have attendance levels that can be up to 300% ... designed 250w = assistance level 1 100% + torque or human newton assistance level 2 200% = 500w + torque or human newton level 3 300% = 750w ....... + torque or human newton. a professional cyclist jaime coloma in a sprint can give up to 1000watios human ..... we are amater.
I am 45 years old and I am very amater and my best moments from 20 to 39 years have passed ...
my heart is no longer to hold 30 minutes at 180ppm
if I want a cardiac stop this is the way to 180 bpm
,and with a cigar in his mouth
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Ravi Kempaiah
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From the comments section in that article;
Shepherd Ginzburg September 5, 2017 at 10:31 pm
I build and service all makes of ebikes.
Simply put, you are wrong.
Hub motors are far more reliable, less complex, and can put far more power to the ground than any mid drive. The mid drive total power is limited by the chain and freewheel. These are drive train parts which were never designed to handle the torque of any motor, they were designed for human power (which is about 250 watts if you want to translate that to electric force). You are stressing these components far beyond their design parameters with a mid drive.
There is more room for a larger and more powerful motor within the wheel than there is between the cranks. I don’t know where you are getting your information about lack of power from hub motors, but I can easily build a 60+ MPH bike if anybody is foolhardy enough to ride one. Climbing hills is not a problem. You speak of uneven weight distribution. Most of my customers prefer a very erect riding position to the more aggressive racing or mountain bike stance. When sitting erect the balance is pretty uneven (biased to the rear) on most any frame I know of. If the rider is very concerned with weight distribution there are very reliable, quite powerful geared hub motors available.
On average they weigh about 6 Lbs. the standard bike hub (about 1 Lb.) is replaced by these, so effectively about 5Lbs is added to the front or rear wheel. If you carry your lunch in a front or rear basket you are already altering the weight bias by the same amount.
Hub motors have far fewer moving parts, if fact a direct drive hub motor only has the stator rotating within it, and no other gears, clutches, freewheels, Etc. These motors will go thousands upon thousands of miles trouble free.
Electric motors have full torque at zero rpm, so I don’t understand your claim of more power obtained by a gear reduction. If the motor is of appropriate size, there is no hill or terrain which will challenge the motor.
Another thing to note is that the Bosch mid drive is not serviceable in the USA. All units are required to be returned to the factory in Germany for service. That should run up a pretty hefty shipping bill (more than the cost of a hub motor) and require a pretty fair amount of time when the unit needs to be repaired. I’m not aware of other manufacturers repair or parts policies.
I believe it’s a no brainer, the hub motor makes far more sense.
You write this article as an expert, but clearly you do not have the experience and information to write an in depth article about this subject.
Reply
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Eric September 6, 2017 at 12:02 pm
Heya Shepherd,
Welcome to the site and thanks for your input. It’s great to see that I’ve created a discussion which allows us to clear things up with experiences that different people have had.
Firstly, with your point that hub drives are more reliable and less complex, I completely agree. I did state that in the article, not sure if I was clear on that or not (my apologies).
I can see where you’re coming from with the rest of your points such more power to get up a hill and the added drivetrain stress. This article was written as a general comparison between the two types of motors, towards the more general consumers interested in eBikes, and whom would most likely want something not so ludicrous.
So when comparing a general hub motor and a general mid drive motor, a mid drive motor would outperform a hub drive on hill climbs without a doubt. Do you agree with me there?
I won’t deny the fact you can get a hub drive motor that can get you up a hill, but to match the hill climbing performance of a mid drive, you’d need a higher output motor yes? It makes sense, otherwise high end electric bike companies (no matter if it’s commuter or eMTB) wouldn’t use a mid drive system. If you look at Haibike, Kalkhoff, Riese and Muller etc., they all use mid drive motors.
Like you said, there is added stresses to the drivetrain which I also mentioned in the article. However typically speaking when a cassette, crankset etc., are designed, they are designed with engineering safety factors such that they can withstand forces greater than typical usage. But even with that, I agree there still is a lot of stress on the gears and I have seen quicker damage to it. To combat this, bike manufacturers and riders could use the SRAM EX1 drivetrain. These are designed for eBikes and are more robust.
Your point on the weight distribution is fair for rear hub drives that are compact. Anything large or if equipped on the front hub, the balance of the bike would change significantly.
Yes electric motors exhibit maximum torque at stall RPM like I mentioned in the article, however I wasn’t clear with the power statement. With mid drives, you can actually change your torque value. With hub drives the maximum torque you’re receiving and going to output to the ground is fixed to whatever the motor is capable of. Since a mid drive uses the gears on the cassette, a change in the ratio of the cassette or chainring can increase torque and power. Using a 11-42t cassette will obviously output more torque to the ground than a 11-36t cassette. Same deal with the chainrings. As for power to the ground, if you get a 250W hub motor and a 250W mid drive motor on the exact same bike and ran a dyno test, the 250W mid drive motor will have a greater power band.
As for servicing Bosch motors in Australia (we’re Australian based), I think we have a service centre locally. Regardless there is still shipping and more costs, which I also did mention in the article.
Simply put, the mid motors are generally a better performer, whereas hub drives are more reliable and cheaper. It depends on what the rider is looking for, and I was going to answer this article with that answer, but like I said it was a little too cliché.
I never mentioned I was an expert, however with an engineering background, it does help me understand the mechanics better which I attempt to explain to the general audience.
Cheers,
– Eric
It's all about gearing. If a hill is hard to walk up, a bike isn't going up it, at least with stock gearing.
I've ridden in MI with some severely steep hills that neither my Haibike mid drive with very low gearing (hard to pedal over 20 mph) NOR Easy Motion Big Bud Pro fatbike with TWO hub motors, 2WD!!, 1 in each wheel can climb with me peddling as hard as I can. And I am abnormally strong in the legs.
No Ebike is strong enough to get you up ANY hill. That's a motorcycle.
That said, the hills is question were steep enough that you felt nervous coming to a stop when you couldn't peddle any more, that you might fall over getting off the bike. Very steep. And both bikes climbed part of the way before I couldn't render any further assistance. The Easy Motion had (since sold) a 350w in back and a 250w in front, probably nominal so I was probably pushing 700-800w at max. 48V
The mid drive Haibike that climbed every bit as well is 350w, 36v. (geared hubs stronger, lol)
IF you geared a bike to climb such a hill (with a single front ring) you probably couldn't go 15mph on the flats.
ONLY reason SOME geared hubs are stronger is because they are drawing much higher voltage (using a lot more power) as all the non-Bafang mid drives are 250-350w. (or was recently, maybe some are bigger now)
THere are hub motors of 1,000-3,000 watts and more. Once you match the 1,000watts motor size with the Bafang mid drive, it BLOWS AWAY any other drive of the SAME 1,000 (or 750) watt hub motor. You can't match leveraging GEARS.....................
Now for Speed, on the street, hub motors are fabulous. But for climbing?
I've ridden in MI with some severely steep hills that neither my Haibike mid drive with very low gearing (hard to pedal over 20 mph) NOR Easy Motion Big Bud Pro fatbike with TWO hub motors, 2WD!!, 1 in each wheel can climb with me peddling as hard as I can. And I am abnormally strong in the legs.
No Ebike is strong enough to get you up ANY hill. That's a motorcycle.
That said, the hills is question were steep enough that you felt nervous coming to a stop when you couldn't peddle any more, that you might fall over getting off the bike. Very steep. And both bikes climbed part of the way before I couldn't render any further assistance. The Easy Motion had (since sold) a 350w in back and a 250w in front, probably nominal so I was probably pushing 700-800w at max. 48V
The mid drive Haibike that climbed every bit as well is 350w, 36v. (geared hubs stronger, lol)
IF you geared a bike to climb such a hill (with a single front ring) you probably couldn't go 15mph on the flats.
ONLY reason SOME geared hubs are stronger is because they are drawing much higher voltage (using a lot more power) as all the non-Bafang mid drives are 250-350w. (or was recently, maybe some are bigger now)
THere are hub motors of 1,000-3,000 watts and more. Once you match the 1,000watts motor size with the Bafang mid drive, it BLOWS AWAY any other drive of the SAME 1,000 (or 750) watt hub motor. You can't match leveraging GEARS.....................
Now for Speed, on the street, hub motors are fabulous. But for climbing?
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