Dillenger Stealth: closer to GenZe e101 or eMotion Nitro?

[Matthew Kreger]

I'm really liking the specs on this Dillenger Steath Legacy 700c:
https://dillengerelectricbikes.com

Samsung 48V 8amp battery integrated into the downtube. Paired with a Bafang 750W mid drive, Shimano Nexus 8 internal hub, Suntour suspension fork and 30mph top speed.

At $2k Price is much closer to the GenZe, but the components read it as more of a competitor to the eMotion bikes. In fact, I think I might like the Nexus/mid-drive combo better than the eMotion Nitro's hub motor and derailleurs.

I'm seriously tempted to order one of these. Does anyone have any experience with Dillenger bikes or the company?

Can you get your hands on one to review, Court?

 

[George S.]

I was looking at their bikes. Right now, Electric Bike Report has the 750W Bafang kit from Dillenger in for a review. They did the install and showed a lot of pictures.

http://electricbikereport.com/bafang-mid-drive-review-1/

I was looking at the bikes they are going to start selling, the other night. They must be brand new, and they show a ship date out a month or so. I agree with you completely that these seem to match up very well with premium 'bike shop' bikes. I can't say anything good or bad about the Shimano internal 8 speed. In theory, you avoid the problems shifting gears with the chain. It seems like a brilliant choice, if it works like they say it will. I could pass on the Suntour suspension fork, but it's a distraction. It's a nice looking frame. The integrated battery makes for nice balance and a clean look.

Sam and his crew have been around for a half dozen years. There is a long thread on Endless Sphere about one of his products. I think they are young and aggressive. You can send an email to Sam and get a response, at least off the KS. Dillenger has a couple of Kickstarters. One is doing really well. Court threw in a little money on the one that is not doing so well, and asked for something to review. So he knows about Dillenger.

I hope it is for real because it is a very nice package. If you do the 'what do the parts cost' analysis, it's not ridiculous. People who know more than I do have said there is a $1000 markup in the average bike shop bike. That's what this thing costs, subtracting off the $1,000. It does seem to be an intro price, right now.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

I contributed to both kickstarters. I've been toying with the idea of the various all-in-wheel kits but I really like this approach better than Copenhagen, FlyKly, or Omni. I hope it gets funded. And $380 for a folding bike with fenders, lights, and panniers is kind of hard to beat. I figure it will give me an idea of the company's care and attention to detail on a product before I drop $2K on the Stealth Legacy, and I can give it to my mom.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I would be very careful dealing with that company. Looks like a direct Chinese import and some customer who was treated very badly by them, has created a website to vent his frustrations.
Check this out: http://www.dillengerelectric.com/

 

[George S.]

Is the Stealth a direct Chinese import, something you can buy off Alibaba, etc? I'd like to know how the internal hub works with the Bafang. Pretty sophisticated bike. The mid-drive won't have the battery problem this guy had, since it has the internal battery. On paper, it's a very interesting bike. If it is pure Chinese, it's kind of impressive.

I think I've seen that part, the defective one, on Alibaba. Wonder what the failure rate is? People pick and choose the Chinese parts to use. Bafang makes a million motors a year. They are supposedly developing a two speed rear hub. It's hard to fight the economies of scale with the Chinese parts. They do some R and D. Maybe Dillenger should build warranty and CS costs into their price.

The folder, well, I have my doubts. That is pretty much the basic Chinese bike, and the cumbersome SLA.

The Genze is a decent price for a basic ebike. Mahindra sells a lot of tractors in the US. They have a good reputation, and every reason to maintain it.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Is the Stealth a direct Chinese import, something you can buy off Alibaba, etc? I'd like to know how the internal hub works with the Bafang. Pretty sophisticated bike. The mid-drive won't have the battery problem this guy had, since it has the internal battery. On paper, it's a very interesting bike. If it is pure Chinese, it's kind of impressive.

I think I've seen that part, the defective one, on Alibaba. Wonder what the failure rate is? People pick and choose the Chinese parts to use. Bafang makes a million motors a year. They are supposedly developing a two speed rear hub. It's hard to fight the economies of scale with the Chinese parts. They do some R and D. Maybe Dillenger should build warranty and CS costs into their price.

The folder, well, I have my doubts. That is pretty much the basic Chinese bike, and the cumbersome SLA.

The Genze is a decent price for a basic ebike. Mahindra sells a lot of tractors in the US. They have a good reputation, and every reason to maintain it.

Well, there were so many impressive Ebike companies from China, Taiwan at this Interbike.
Motor manufactures like MXUS, Dapu, Bafang... etc.
Also, TranzX had a Izip Dash replica but with a hydraulic brake and all the upgraded stuff.
EG, Juiced Rider, Ejoe are all coming up with a mid-drive or rear hub 700C wheel bike this year and they all look like Dillinger's mirror image.
AND all of these are impressive.

BUT what makes any bike standout is the durability and after sales support. These guys offer just 1 year and I would VERY careful with any company that offers just 1 year. On top of that, these guys have no physical location, just like Volton. So, if something goes belly up, they will just close their online webpage and nothing is at stake. Whereas the customer will end up with a crappy bike.

As for Mahindra, a few of my school friends work at Mahindra and I am in close touch with them. Mahindra is growing leaps and bounds in Asia and have joined hands with Renault to make mid-size and high-end sedans. They are a vastly different company vetting their feet in E-bike business.

 

[Ann M.]

Be real folks: The new generation 750 watt Bafang kit on a bike with a state of the art Samsung in the frame lithium battery for $2K??? With decent components and good frame? They don't list all of there components, so how can you say these bikes match with the known quality of the EMotion bikes. Where's the close-ups of the frame? If you look at the Dillinger/UK/US/AU site it does appear to be an Australian based company with each country site a mirror of the Aussie one. Most of the internet ebike 'Manufacturers' are just importers of a container load or so of product, thus the delay for it arriving and taking pre-orders. That finances their order. Take a look at Alibaba.com and you will find one manufacturer listing a product incredibly similar to the Dillenger Stealth; however, that company requires a minimum order of 30 bikes. The only bikes Dillenger actually has for sale are the Lead Acid Battery powered ones, everything else is in a 'back order' or 'pre order' state. I'd be a bit antsy about their technical knowledge when it comes to these other bikes. Just doing a survey of the internet, I see ads online for the BBS01 for $470, not including a battery and BBS02's for the $700 range, no battery. Do the Math!

Sorry @George, having owned a specialty ebike store for many years, there is no $1000 markup on a $2000 bike. Ya'll are thinking of electronics and jewelry! If there was that kind of profit per unit, then every bike shop would be gushing to sell them and there would be more IBDs that were Electric Bike Specialists. Which I would love to see!

 

[George S.]

I don’t know what the Stealth costs, as produced in China, as offered on Alibaba. Ravi makes it clear that bikes like this are in the pipeline. One way or another we will know what it costs and how well it holds up.


A lot of the arguments about quality were made about BikesDirect. People said they were basically hucksters. Their marketing is annoying, but their bikes have held up. And why not? Almost every frame for every bike is made in Taiwan or China. The frame factory makes them for Diamondback and Trek, or Bikes Direct or whoever.


Brands also manufactured by Kinesis include Diamondback Bicycles, Felt Bicycles, GT Bicycles, Schwinn, Jamis, K2, Raleigh,Trek, Kross and Kona — as well as the brands marketed by the U.S. company Bikesdirect.com: Motobecane USA, Dawes USA, Cycles Mercier, Windsor America.


(Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.orgy)


So, it is tough to say that a ‘discount’ Chinese ebike frame won’t hold up. If the frame turns out to be OK on these new models, what’s left? Well, the mid-drive and the electronics and the battery. Bafang has a decent reputation, but they have had quality problems. The problems have been fixed. Really, the controllers have been the problem.


What’s the real difference between the 350 W version of the BBS02 and the 700 watt version? Mostly you get a different controller and a 48V battery that can supply a lot of amps. These combinations are working for people. It doesn’t seem like the 750W version will be a disaster. It doesn’t cost much more. It’s a pretty cheap part. Controllers? Well, they can be replaced, and you are buying a part that is generic or in very wide circulation across multiple manufacturers. If Bob’s Cycle’s goes down, the motor is still a Bafang motor. Bafang is a big outfit.



Battery tech is changing. Everyone is adding capacity. We should all pay what Tesla pays, and the cost of the battery would be insignificant on an ebike. That will happen. You have to look out a year or two.


So, the other parts, beyond the frame and the motor parts? At some point these parts are generic. You can buy them on Amazon. If Bob is gone, I can still get a chain or a fork or a pedal. People upgrade the European bikes.There’s a bike frame offered on Kickstarter. Where do those people get parts? Unless the Chinese use proprietary Chinese parts, any bike is full of interchangeable, readily available parts. Seems to me.


When Alibaba went public in the US, it should have sent a message. This is the future of the world retail market. Look at the value of the company, the success of the offering in the US. It’s sort of like what Amazon was 20 years ago. Maybe Dillenger just sees the future, and tries to act on it. Attack them if they have a shoddy product. Attack them if they have poor customer service or don’t fix real issues. But at least have a little admiration for some young guys trying to run a business. There’s nothing inherently wrong with the Dillenger business model, that I can see.

 

[Ann M.]

I agree @George, that lots of components and frames come from China; its just that Dillenger does not go into specifics about those parts as has a known company like Easy Motion, so to compare the two as same quality is a stretch. And as an ebike shop owner there have been considerable differences in quality of frames come through the doors & repair area. Close examination of weld quality on alloy & steel frames will show the good vs. the sloppy. That's just one area that affects the long term quality & structural quality of an ebike. Yes, of course you can do the upgrades; I did during my road racing days, but the frame was a known good to build upon.

Just asking for the buyers to actually know what they are paying for. I'm not knocking Dillenger or other companies like them. The deal is, they are not the innovators in this case, they're just shopping in bulk in China asking the plant to tweak a few specs and calling it their own. Yes, with the Bafang mid drive parts will be available, but there are differences in quality from various OEM parts like controllers and mating the wiring harnesses can be tricky if its not original parts. Not impossible, but please remember, that a lot of folks buying from the internet don't have your skill level or knowledge to fix something if it goes wrong and there's still very few shops or techs to provide service of that sort. Please, batteries? Go check out LEVA's lengthy and good discussion about quality differences in Lithium batteries and safety.

Kinesis and Bikes Direct are not Dillenger, we are just gonna have to see what the product is like when it finally arrives. My question is always what the product will be like and how it will have aged a couple of years down the road and then you can judge whether the bike was a good value. Its never a happy time for any shop when they hear from a customer that multiple issues/failures/lack of quality control has turned them off from the ebike category. We have recycled many of this type of bike when owners decide its no longer cost effective to put more $$ into the item. Positive side: these Asian manufacturers are responding to the market pressures that having a global face like Alibaba and other international open trading sites provides, so in general quality and variety are improving.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

I definitely did not mean to imply that I had any specific confidence that the Dillenger bikes would be of comparable quality to Easy Motion. I like the combination of components. Based on the reading I've been doing 750W mid-drive w/ 48V Samsung batteries is a pretty good place to start for someone my size (6'2" and 320#) and where I ride (moderately hilly mid-Atlantic). I also really like the idea of internally geared hubs and 28mph pedelec. There are very few production bikes I've seen so far that combine these characteristics. None sub-$3K. Maybe none sub $5K. That's a big difference to me. Especially since I've never ridden an ebike of any sort. Since I'm not willing to spend $5K, I'm weighing the possibility of buying a bike from a somewhat more established company that probably doesn't have the power or range it would need to move my carcass and then trying to sell it for a big loss or parking it and giving up the whole idea. Another possibility is buying a bike that on paper looks like it can do what I want it to do, but is only available mail order from a company that is a more unknown quantity in the area of product quality and support. It's a bit of a gamble either way for me. Especially since there is no LBS in Baltimore with a serious interest in electric bikes. It's going to be a two hour drive or mail order anyway.

So, I'm gambling a bit on Dillenger. I pledged $612US for a Kickstarter conversion kit that will make my current bike roughly comparable to a $1.5K-$2.5K bike (who knows, maybe 350W hub drive and 36V really is sufficient to move down the road). That campaign is less than halfway funded with five days to go, so it probably won't happen. If it does it will give me a pretty cheap entry point into what a basic e-bike is like and if I want to move up I may be able to sell it without taking too much of a bath.

I also pledged $371US for a Kicksrater ready-to-ride Dillenger folding e-bike. The build quality of a bike that costs less than $400 shipped should give me some idea of what Dillenger is willing to put their name on. It even comes with a tool kit and panniers!

I expect very little of the folding bike, but if my mom can ride it three blocks to the library and back it will definitely be worth the $400 to me. And if it's not something I feel safe putting her on at least I didn't drop $2500 on the Stealth and a spare battery.

 

[Ann M.]

Hi @Matthew Kreger, You've got 2 thumbs up from me for investing in electric transportation. Did you consider the add on cost of freight for an ebike with SLA batteries, not lithium from Dillenger? $400 does not cover the freight; I went to the Dillenger site and did a pseudo order where you can order the SLA powered folding bike right now and had to include country, state, zip code, etc and was shown an extra freight fee. That bike doesn't have any special mid drive; its just like many similar quality folding ebike here in the USA, no waiting on online funding and with a company that has a Washington state warehouse and folks that answer the phone for issues, etc. X-tremescooters.com Yes their name says scooters, but they have a lot of electric bikes as well. They've been around for at least 14 years. You get parts, service, here which for a potential warranty issue is great. They even offer extended warranties on a lot of their ebikes and scooters.

You want power enough for your build? And pedelec and 28mph? And under 3K? What's wrong with Currie Tech's Izip Dash or Peak? The Dash has a 500 watt high torque brushless hub motor; pedal assist modes that allow the rider to reach speeds up to 28+ mph and a throttle (only on the Dash) which you can IGNORE if you wish. The Peak has a mid drive motor that can take advantage of the gears already on the bike to produce additional power.There are good bargains to be had from other brands like Prodeco Tech in the $2K price point. YOU are LUCKY!! you have choices, and they can all come from companies already here in the US with live people to help.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

So first off, I seem to find myself defending Dillenger here even though I have no reason to believe they deserve it. But I also have no reason to believe they deserve such condemnation based on one disgruntled customer who insisted they continue to replace something that uniquely broke multiple times on his bike and then launched a troll website to get revenge when they asked him to pay shipping. There are also lots of positive reviews on their web site and a few reports of positive support experiences in the forums. It's possible they made them all up themselves, but unlikely.

I understand the POV of an LBS owner when it comes to manufacturers that insist on selling direct only (I will refrain from comparing Dillenger to Tesla here (-: ). And it sucks that the LBS that tried to make a go of it selling e-bikes in Baltimore didn't make it. But that's where I am today, so if I'm buying mail order on a budget do I buy direct from a less-well known company in Australia that is trying to get a foothold in the US or from a "dealer" for a Chinese company with a US distributor like X-tremescooters? You can't seriously believe I'm going to have a better product and better customer service if I buy the latter just because they sell through dealers. When my X-Treme bike has a problem, do I call IBAIK that sold it to me through Amazon or X-treme scooters distributor in Washington state? Where is IBAIK located exactly? Or should I pick one of the other authorized dealers that will sell me one on Amazon? Should I search for each of these dealers on the forums and see if I can figure out which ones have a better rep than the others? Once I decide who I'm most comfortable dealing with, then I can rest assured that they will have the experience and skill to help me deal with any issues that arise and their mature relationship with X-Treme, and X-Treme's vast experience, careful engineering and quality control of the supply chain will ensure a better experience than I could possibly get with Dillenger?

Yes ordering the Cheetah folding bike from the US Dillenger web site does cost more (though they apparently are in stock, unlike the other models which are available for pre-order). I'm not really sure I buy the story on the Kickstarter: "We've invested in new design and production techniques that allow us to produce the Cheetah and deliver it to our customers at a price point that blows the competition out of the water!" But it does actually do that. My Kickstarter pledge for the Cheetah is $478AUD including $79 shipping. They also include a toolkit with a pump, etc. (probably not worth much, but they sell it for $35 on their US website) and panniers (ibid, $80 US). So for about $371 at today's exchange rate it's about as close to dirt cheap as I can imagine it gets. I can buy a Schwinn folding 20" bike with a lifetime frame warranty on Amazon for $220 shipped. For $150 more Dillenger ditches the derailleur and slaps on a basic motor and 12a SLA battery. Who's to say the bikes aren't stamped out in the same sweatshop?

What's wrong with Currie bikes? Nothing as far as I know. I have exactly as much experience with them as I do with Dillenger. They appear to use pretty comparable components to the Dillenger bikes, they just cost a lot more. Maybe Dillenger sources an awful frame that will fall apart in 400 days, but they've been going for seven years now in Australia and haven't been run out of town on rails. Again, the Dillenger has a combination of characteristics I like better. It's better looking than those Currie bikes IMO. I can buy a new EMotion Neo Carbon for only $3500 ($1k off!) and it looks even better than the Dillenger Stealth, but it has front and rear derailleurs (which I don't like), 36V battery, and a less powerful hub motor. Honestly, I've fixed enough flats in my life that I'm not really enthused about the prospect of hub drives.

My dad bought a new Toyota Corona Deluxe for $1800 in 1967 and his friends thought he was crazy. He put over 500K miles on it, zipping past junkyards full of Chevys and Fords. Question is, is Dillenger Toyota or Yugo? Somebody's got to buy some to find out.

Cheers!

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

So first off, I seem to find myself defending Dillenger here even though I have no reason to believe they deserve it. But I also have no reason to believe they deserve such condemnation based on one disgruntled customer who insisted they continue to replace something that uniquely broke multiple times on his bike and then launched a troll website to get revenge when they asked him to pay shipping. There are also lots of positive reviews on their web site and a few reports of positive support experiences in the forums. It's possible they made them all up themselves, but unlikely.

I understand the POV of an LBS owner when it comes to manufacturers that insist on selling direct only (I will refrain from comparing Dillenger to Tesla here (-: ). And it sucks that the LBS that tried to make a go of it selling e-bikes in Baltimore didn't make it. But that's where I am today, so if I'm buying mail order on a budget do I buy direct from a less-well known company in Australia that is trying to get a foothold in the US or from a "dealer" for a Chinese company with a US distributor like X-tremescooters? You can't seriously believe I'm going to have a better product and better customer service if I buy the latter just because they sell through dealers. When my X-Treme bike has a problem, do I call IBAIK that sold it to me through Amazon or X-treme scooters distributor in Washington state? Where is IBAIK located exactly? Or should I pick one of the other authorized dealers that will sell me one on Amazon? Should I search for each of these dealers on the forums and see if I can figure out which ones have a better rep than the others? Once I decide who I'm most comfortable dealing with, then I can rest assured that they will have the experience and skill to help me deal with any issues that arise and their mature relationship with X-Treme, and X-Treme's vast experience, careful engineering and quality control of the supply chain will ensure a better experience than I could possibly get with Dillenger?

Cheers!

Matthew,
Alan Levine of Hybrid Pedals is a good friend of mine. Part of his shop burned down because of some fire recently but if you need any assistance deciding on an E-bike, I would be happy to help.
We can visit his shop some weekend.
Mark (Opimax) and Dan (Bike_on) are other veteran Ebikers living in the area (DC, MD). I used to ride down the W&OD or Custis trails last summer. Hope you find your bike soon.

Cheers

 

[Ann M.]

@Matthew Kreger , Not meaning to drive you crazy, just if you are looking at ebikes here in the US, choosing a company that has offices, warehouses and/or production located in the US will give you a way to have support for your EBike, even if your city has no electric bike dealers. A little easier for you over the long haul. Go test ride; @Ravi is right; its worth the drive to get hands on with the bikes. As for X-tremescooters.com; if you purchased an SLA bike from one of the many online dealers, just like with ProdecoTech, you call the company directly. I've spoken with their respective customer support teams and all are responsive to customers. BTW Volton does have a shop; they started as a mountain biking store and have expanded to doing their EBike line. I just spoke with them yesterday about another customer's issue. Take a look at the Volton Alation 500 or the mid-drive powered by a Bafang 350watt motor, they have that sleek in-the-frame removable battery that you like and quality components at the $2K price point and their company is in the Chicago IL area.

 

[Matthew Kreger]

Matthew,
Alan Levine of Hybrid Pedals is a good friend of mine. Part of his shop burned down because of some fire recently but if you need any assistance deciding on an E-bike, I would be happy to help.
We can visit his shop some weekend...

Thanks! I met Alan at Big Wheel Bikes a couple of weekends ago. Rode a few bikes around the parking lot, but it was a little too crappy out to take one out on the trail. He's the one that has the awesome deal on the E Motion Carbon. I intend to go back when we have a relatively decent day to try out the Carbon and a Pedego City Commuter. Alan said his new shop would be opening in just a few weeks, so look forward to seeing it.

 

[LouisQ]

Some rotten bugger had a RACK that broke and now took out two web sites to trash the company. What an evil nut. The whole battle is over a broken weld. Dillengers has offered a full replacement and still the nut prattles on.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66491

 

[LouisQ]

Chinese manufacturing is all about standards set by the company branding the product. If you think the metallurgy and quality control in a Trek is the same as in the Walmart priced frame I'm afraid we're in for a big surprise and hopefully the injuries are not to severe. This move to put monster motors and huge Lipo packs on Walmart frames is an accident waiting to happen. Looking at alibabba prices is meaningless. Try playing the order out and adding the REAL shipping costs, PayPal fees from vendor, USD to HKD costs, PayPal conversion fees... I'm importing parts and the $6 brake set gets to $15 in a blink. $500 landed for an EBike smells of 3 day old fish. From my limited but expanding experience that means it's a $250 bike. No way...

 

[JoePah]

Some rotten bugger had a RACK that broke and now took out two web sites to trash the company. What an evil nut. The whole battle is over a broken weld. Dillengers has offered a full replacement and still the nut prattles on.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=66491

Looks like one obsessed customer! We've talk about failed seat post racks for years on ES.. It is just a horrible choice for a battery. And Dillenger's rack is no different.. He has admitted to 3 failures with 400 kits. That is a terrible failure rate for a structural piece of aluminum on a bike over a very short period of time (assuming it's under the 1 year warranty).

Too bad this guy didn't do a little research before he bought.

 

[LouisQ]

Too bad this guy didn't do a little research before he bought.

Exactly! I read and then road. And having thought about all that weight on a rack lead me to trying a bike with a bottle battery and I was sold on the idea of everything centered and as low as possible. While many are happy with rack mounts, using my ride for grocery runs would have made an already tail heart bike a real beast of burden completely ready to fall over and unbalanced. But as you wrote it's the obsessive nature of the complaint that makes me really wonder how connected to reality the guy is. I mean wow, a full refund and still it goes on. I'm really disappointed that ES allowed it to go on. Modernvespa, on of the best run forums I've ever used would have shut it down. It also appears this forum doesn't allow that sort of unbridled rant. Thank deity!

 

[Matthew Kreger]

I posted a comment on Dillenger's folding bike Kickstarter telling them they should hire the PR firm that Storm e-bike used and they followed up with this:

Creator Dillenger Pty Ltd 2 days ago
@ LH and Matthew, thanks guys, couldn't agree with you more! They certainly have outshone us in the marketing department, that's for sure. I just feel sorry for all those people if the product doesn't turn out 100% perfect the first time, which would be achieving the impossible. It's so important to have a manufacturer who will stand by the product and offer support and spares down the track. It's taken us 7 years and 2 previous complete re-works of the Cheetah to get it to this level. I wouldn't have offered the first 2 models in these numbers. It's taken 7 years to get this model to the level where I'm comfortable to offer the same warranty at a lower price point.

This 'fly-by-night' indiegogo campaign has warning bells and I just hope for the sake of the industry and all the people giving them money that they aren't just in it for this campaign. Otherwise some people are going to be left very disappointed with the support down the track, that's if they ever get the product.​

So while there remains no doubt the Cheetah is uber cheapo, it appears this is Gen III and the 7-year-old company intends to stand by it. Can't ask for more than that for $380.