Countersteering

[Jeremy McCreary]

I've long known that countersteering is the fastest way to drop a bike or motorcycle into a curve at speed. And that I have to countersteer the SUV to keep it from turning into every gas station it passes.

But after all these decades of biking, I still didn't know that I have to countersteer every single time I turn:

Given that we all ride without even thinking about it, the statement at the very end that there are still many things about how bikes work that science has yet to explain in simple terms is quite interesting.

In looking into this further, I learned that the complicated differential equations describing how a bike self-balances have been formulated. They can't be solved completely, but enough info can be extracted to learn (a) that bikes should indeed be able to do this (meaning that the essential physics has been captured), and (b) that the gyroscopic effect, though helpful, is totally unnecessary. This has been confirmed experimentally. (Look up physicist Andy Ruina and bikes on YouTube.)

Turns out that cycling involves many strongly coupled, highly nonlinear processes. (Translation: Everything depends on everything else, and twice the input seldom gives twice the output.) This is exactly the kind of system that the human brain is ill-equipped to understand at anything approaching a gut level.

So if you enjoy doing things that baffle others — or at least physicists — keep on riding!

 

[JGcycle]

Great video--very interesting.

 

[JRA]

Most on this forum that have spent alot of time on motorcycles do this intuitively I would suspect and is worth paying attention to while riding any two wheeled vehicle, especially at speed.

 

[Gionnirocket]

Funny I've always known this without thinking about it too deeply...
But going into a turn I typically exaggerate the counter_steer and then lean harder than necessary into the turn. Not because I'm some type expert, but find it makes the ride more fun. I also practice balancing by shifting weight and S (imaginary slalom) riding down a path at speed... again more for fun especially when a good tune comes on the music player.

 

[indianajo]

Turns out that cycling involves many strongly coupled, highly nonlinear processes. (Translation: Everything depends on everything else, and twice the input seldom gives twice the output.) This is exactly the kind of system that the human brain is ill-equipped to understand at anything approaching a gut level.

It took me an entire year to learn how to do this. I had skinned knees from age 6 until I finally was able to take off the training wheels age 7. Maybe why I still feel proud to keep doing it age 72.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

But after all these decades of biking, I still didn't know that I have to countersteer every single time I turn:

Well, that's not necessary on every single turn? I've always admired my riding buddies the ability to enter the corner at the full speed as the group while I had to slow down before the bend myself. Once, I learned about counter-steering here at EBR Fora and started practising the technique. It worked! However, the greater the bike speed is the more you lean towards the turn direction, and it is advisable to keep the inner pedal in the top position (as to avoid a pedal strike). This is why I counter-steer only when I need to.

I watched the video (and other similar videos as well) when I first learned about the counter-steering.

 

[PDoz]

Well, that's not necessary on every single turn? I've always admired my riding buddies the ability to enter the corner at the full speed as the group while I had to slow down before the bend myself. Once, I learned about counter-steering here at EBR Fora and started practising the technique. It worked! However, the greater the bike speed is the more you lean towards the turn direction, and it is advisable to keep the inner pedal in the top position (as to avoid a pedal strike). This is why I counter-steer only when I need to.

I watched the video (and other similar videos as well) when I first learned about the counter-steering.

I'm not sure why you feel pedal position has anything to do with counter steering, but if you need convincing - do the pedal thing but try cornering single handed but on the opposite grip. I'm willing to bet 20 cm of skin you will realize every corner is initiated by countersteering

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I'm not sure why you feel pedal position has anything to do with counter steering, but if you need convincing - do the pedal thing but try cornering single handed but on the opposite grip. I'm willing to bet 20 cm of skin you will realize every corner is initiated by countersteering

I do not deny it PDoz (taking any corner requires that the bike is leant towards the turn direction). I am actually fond of the counter-steering thing. However, taking a corner at high speed (that is easy with aware counter-steering) makes you lean more.

 

[PDoz]

I do not deny it PDoz (taking any corner requires that the bike is leant towards the turn direction). I am actually fond of the counter-steering thing. However, taking a corner at high speed (that is easy with aware counter-steering) makes you lean more.

And each time you lean more / corner harder , you will initiate it with a bit of counter steering.

eg, try standing up on the pedals, no hands, looking down at the bars as you try and turn with lean - the bike knows to counter steer ! Now try it on ice or greasy mud at speed ( handy hint, this is where outside peg down helps with control so you can weight the outside peg to control the slide....nothing to do with counter steering but still educational)

 

[Stefan Mikes]

eg, try standing up on the pedals, no hands, looking down at the bars as you try and turn with lean - the bike knows to counter steer ! Now try it on ice or greasy mud at speed ( handy hint, this is where outside peg down helps with control so you can weight the outside peg to control the slide....nothing to do with counter steering but still educational)

ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?

 

[Gionnirocket]

ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?

 

[PDoz]

ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL ME?

one day, when you least expect it, you might thank me for the advice.

If you survive the lesson

 

[Stefan Mikes]

one day, when you least expect it, you might thank me for the advice.

If you survive the lesson

I refuse riding hands-free!

 

[PDoz]

I refuse riding hands-free!

So I guess you wouldn't enjoy cruising down a country road, throttle locked on the guzzi, sitting back on the pillion seat and stretching.....then noticing the cop car beside you? Good bloke, we chatted bikes for an hour and I thanked him for his version of the speeding fine.

It's really surprising how much you can learn with variations of hands free - standing up down a rocky trail , balancing without touching the bars yet still steering through the pegs / bouncing off rocks etc. I wish I'd spent more time riding hands free as a kid - we were more interested in tossing the bikes around than finese

 

[Stefan Mikes]

So I guess you wouldn't enjoy cruising down a country road, throttle locked on the guzzi, sitting back on the pillion seat and stretching.....then noticing the cop car beside you? Good bloke, we chatted bikes for an hour and I thanked him for his version of the speeding fine.

Oh, my...

It's really surprising how much you can learn with variations of hands free - standing up down a rocky trail , balancing without touching the bars yet still steering through the pegs / bouncing off rocks etc. I wish I'd spent more time riding hands free as a kid - we were more interested in tossing the bikes around than finese

I could ride hands-free when I was young. Not anymore. Whenever I take both hands off the grips, the front wheel does a wobble and I grab at least one of the grips instantly. Not young anymore!

 

[Viking1]

From the physics standpoint, and as a former aggressive motorcycle rider, counter steering is one of the best things you need to know when riding, and it needs to be practiced so it becomes instinctual. It does require a bit of speed of 15 mph or more to become effective. Try pushing the right handlebar to the left at speed and the bike will quickly swerve to the right…..

 

[PCeBiker]

I refuse riding hands-free!

Riding no-hands is a blast !!
Try it in a cross wind.
You have to lean the bike into the wind and keep your body vertical to keep going in a straight line.

 

[Roamers]

I could ride hands-free when I was young. Not anymore. Whenever I take both hands off the grips, the front wheel does a wobble and I grab at least one of the grips instantly. Not young anymore!

Do you suppose the difference might be frame geometry and center of gravity than your age? I remember as a youngster no hands riding my clunky single speed. Since my 10 speed in late teens, have not been able to.

 

[Rich W.]

From the physics standpoint, and as a former aggressive motorcycle rider, counter steering is one of the best things you need to know when riding, and it needs to be practiced so it becomes instinctual. It does require a bit of speed of 15 mph or more to become effective. Try pushing the right handlebar to the left at speed and the bike will quickly swerve to the right…..

This pretty much sums it up. At slow speeds you turn into the direction of travel, at higher speeds you counter-steer (or fight it through the turn and wish you had). My understanding of this was that it had something to do with breaking the plane of two gyroscopes, but physics isn’t my speciality. When I was riding heavy road bikes (700-830lb Harleys) counter steering was a must and no hands riding and a gentle lean for a lane change was the norm. On a bicycle, everything is slowed down and light weight (comparatively) so the physics are different (or maybe the same, but the conditions are different). And having already caught a pedal while in a fast turn, I have to agree that its best to stop pedaling for a momnent and get the inside pedal up, or you may have an unpleasant surprise in store. Scraping parts on a Harley was fine (and kind of fun); jamming a pedal into asphalt on a bike at speed is a bit different.

 

[PCeBiker]

Do you suppose the difference might be frame geometry and center of gravity than your age?

I can't ride no hands on my old e-bike. I get a huge speed wobble within 2 seconds of taking my hands off the handlebars. My front suspension is completely shot and sloppy.

I find that a greater rake/caster angle helps with riding no hands.
Mountain bike style frames tend to have very little caster angle which allows for quick steering, but makes the bike kinda twitchy and hard to ride with no hands.