Comparing my Class 1 to my Class 3 on the same urban loop.

[rich c]

Comparing my 38 pound carbon fiber 2020 BMC City Ltd Class 1 to my 52 pound aluminum 2016 Haibike Trekking Class 3. Shimano to Bosch mid drives. Images 1 and 4 are Haibike, images 2 and 3 are BMC. I used a variety of assist settings on each bike, not paying attention to any data as I was riding. I ride this route around 200 days a year, but not bored yet. It is a beautiful route along the Illinois River for a couple miles and at least 5 miles of it is on a paved Greenway multi-use path. I don't stop my iWatch at traffic lights, so not 100% riding time is recorded.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Similar average speed, far better workout on the BMC.

 

[mschwett]

that's a great and really interesting comparison. it's curious that the average speed is basically the same, as is the heart rate... but the calories are way different. you'd think that if the motor was doing more of the work in the haibike ride, your heart rate would be a bit lower, or the speed would be much higher!

does the BMC have a power meter, or do you know how much battery you used in each?

thanks for sharing, love the data!

 

[Ken M]

Cool data, but if effective urban mobility solution is wanted I would think average speed would become more important and the rider exertion needed would also want to be reduced (assist can always be reduced to get more exercise). Personally I think the reason why the average speeds are not that much different is because these 250W nominal drive systems really are not very effective above 20mph (simulations pretty much support that).

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Personally I think the reason why the average speeds are not that much different is because these 250W nominal drive systems really are not very effective above 20mph (simulations pretty much support that).

These nominal 250 W motors can actually produce much more power. That's why it is doable to ride these e-bike fast. (Mine provides up to 520 W mechanical, 666 W electrical).

 

[rich c]

that's a great and really interesting comparison. it's curious that the average speed is basically the same, as is the heart rate... but the calories are way different. you'd think that if the motor was doing more of the work in the haibike ride, your heart rate would be a bit lower, or the speed would be much higher!

does the BMC have a power meter, or do you know how much battery you used in each?

thanks for sharing, love the data!

I know the Bosch just has a sliding scale for wattage. I'll have to look deeper into the Shimano. One of my assumptions is that I used a higher assist on the Bosch to burn less calories. I'll continue to see if I can refine the data a little more before I put the Haibike on the stand for new cassette, chainring, and chain. 7,000 mile rebuild. LOL

 

[Ken M]

These nominal 250 W motors can actually produce much more power. That's why it is doable to ride these e-bike fast. (Mine provides up to 520 W mechanical, 666 W electrical).

Does anyone have information on what the EU really allows for power rating / max power / etc? It's clear that HR727 in the US details that 750W is just a motor rating and not a max drive system power and focuses on restricting power per constraints above 20mph but everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the 250W power limit / rating in the EU. I've read that most of the 250W ebikes in the EU peak at much higher levels but what are the regulatory guidelines?

 

[mschwett]

Cool data, but if effective urban mobility solution is wanted I would think average speed would become more important and the rider exertion needed would also want to be reduced (assist can always be reduced to get more exercise). Personally I think the reason why the average speeds are not that much different is because these 250W nominal drive systems really are not very effective above 20mph (simulations pretty much support that).

i don’t think the thread is about “urban mobility solutions” as you put it, given the description of the route and implied purpose of the ride. high motor output is truly not necessary for many or most uses of an eBike.

 

[Ken M]

i don’t think the thread is about “urban mobility solutions” as you put it, given the description of the route and implied purpose of the ride. high motor output is truly not necessary for many or most uses of an eBike.

Having some ebikes that are truly effective urban mobility is a bit more important that just making them good for recreation / leisure riding. I understand that oil and auto industries don't want the competition but the world needs great human scale transportation solutions. An ebike is actually the most efficient way for anyone to go from A-to-B ever invented (even more efficient than walking when food consumption is considered) so it's a big deal to not limit their potential with legislation intended only to protect oil and auto industries.

 

[mschwett]

Does anyone have information on what the EU really allows for power rating / max power / etc? It's clear that HR727 in the US details that 750W is just a motor rating and not a max drive system power and focuses on restricting power per constraints above 20mph but everyone seems to have a different interpretation of the 250W power limit / rating in the EU. I've read that most of the 250W ebikes in the EU peak at much higher levels but what are the regulatory guidelines?

they define it as the maximum power sustainable continuously for 30 minutes, presumably without damage to any part of the system from overheating etc. there actually isn’t a limit on the peak power as far as i know. of course speed is capped at 15.5mph, and “peak power” of a motor is a kind of fruitless concept, since you can change it by tweaking the way the controller works.

if you read UNECE 85, there is actually some description of how the motor should be run for the test, which might imply a much lower peak power than is actually evident in pedelecs in the EU.

anyway, this is way off topic from the OP’s post, best to start a new thread if one cared about this…

 

[mschwett]

Having some ebikes that are truly effective urban mobility is a bit more important that just making them good for recreation / leisure riding. I understand that oil and auto industries don't want the competition but the world needs great human scale transportation solutions. An ebike is actually the most efficient way for anyone to go from A-to-B ever invented (even more efficient than walking when food consumption is considered) so it's a big deal to not limit their potential with legislation intended only to protect oil and auto industries.

but that isn’t what the OP is posting about.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

they define it as the maximum power sustainable continuously for 30 minutes, presumably without damage to any part of the system from overheating etc. there actually isn’t a limit on the peak power as far as i know. of course speed is capped at 15.5mph, and “peak power” of a motor is a kind of fruitless concept, since you can change it by tweaking the way the controller works.

AFAIK the manufacturers of Euro e-bike motors also take care not to exceed 600W of mechanical max power not to violate the e-bike laws of Austria (which is an important European country, montane area).

 

[ChezCheese:)]

RichC, you don't say which charts refer to which bike... At no point did you ride beyond the assist speed cutoff on either bike. Yet one you apparently used a lot more calories.

 

[Ken M]

In a way this power discussion is what this post is about because it does explain why the class 1 and 3 results were about the same.

 

[Deacon Blues]

I don't understand the point of this thread.
Rich C, in his heading, compares a class 1 and class 3 motor, but doesn't go over the 20mph limit in either of this rides.
I don't want to bash on Rich, but what is the purpose of this post?
There are so many variables in this comparison, not the least is what is the torque of each power plant?

 

[rich c]

RichC, you don't say which charts refer to which bike... At no point did you ride beyond the assist speed cutoff on either bike. Yet one you apparently used a lot more calories.

First line of my post; Images 1 and 4 are Haibike, images 2 and 3 are BMC
I'm sure I exceeded the 20mph on the BMC, but definitely not 28mph on the Haibike. The Shimano motor in the BMC has no resistance in the motor when the assist is exceeded, the Bosch is quite the opposite. The split times are an average for that mile. The BMC has 3 assist levels and the Haibike has 4. So easier to burn less energy with a slightly higher assist level on the Haibike/Bosch. There is at least one steep grade where I max out the assist and that is in mile 6

 

[dodgeman]

I think it’s an interesting comparison. You can mainly see you are working harder on the class I. Where is this at along the Illinois River? I’m from Macomb Illinois area and always looking for bike trails nearby.

 

[rich c]

I get off the Greenway and ride a parkway called Grand View Drive.
The the urban section called the Rock Island Greenway. http://www.peoriaparks-planning.org/maps/PPDRockIslandGreenway2014.pdf
Then the Rock Island Trail when it's dry. https://www2.illinois.gov/dnr/Parks/PublishingImages/RockIslandTrailSiteMap.PNG
And also the Morton Bike Trail the runs from East Peoria to Morton. https://www.localopal.org/morton-bike-trail-morton.html
Something like 45 miles total.

 

[dodgeman]

Thanks for the links, I’m about a two hour drive from there, I may have to give it a try.

 

[rich c]

I don't understand the point of this thread.
Rich C, in his heading, compares a class 1 and class 3 motor, but doesn't go over the 20mph limit in either of this rides.
I don't want to bash on Rich, but what is the purpose of this post?
There are so many variables in this comparison, not the least is what is the torque of each power plant?

Well it's certainly not an engineering paper submitted to a national engineering journal. It's just something I noticed and thought I would share on a broad scope forum how a class 1 is not the turd that many people who insist on having 1,500 watt motors think they are. No where did I mention this was an all out assault on the bikes, nor did I say it was a fact filled report. In fact I said "not paying attention to any data as I was riding". Sorry I didn't meet your expectations of strict engineering data.