Co-op rules against ebike

[6zfshdb]

HOA's and co-ops can make any regulation they see fit until someone challenges it in court. I would consult a lawyer to see what the legal ramifications are should there be an incident.

Here's an example of a worst case scenario:

My brother lives in a NJ. co-op complex where e-bikes & batteries are prohibited inside apartments. The wording is not specific so someone decided to store & charge an e-bike outside the apartment on the enclosed patio of an adjacent building. It was a cheap bike & battery which unfortunately caused a fire. It quickly spread up the vinyl siding to the second floor apartment. It burned the roof off most of the building before the fire department got it under control. Thankfully, no one was hurt. I don't know the specifics but the bike owner now has legal problems.

My brother and several other residents were charging their bikes the same way until this incident. The co-op does not have garages and residents park outside in front of the building. My brother now runs an extension cord out the window and, temperature permitting, charges & stores the battery in the trunk of his car. He keeps the bike, without the battery, on his patio with a cover over it. He's not sure if this violates any co-op regulations and he's not about to ask. Is the bike really an e-bike if it has the battery removed? In any case, there is zero chance of the bike causing a fire without the battery.

I don't mean to scare you with this but I just want to point out it can happen. The chances of such an fire are actually quite rare but it would be a good idea to know the legal aspects should an incident occur.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you find a solution to your dilemma!

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Just saying:

Any consumer product that causes 191 fires in New York City in a single year is going to be banned.

We have to keep in mind that we have far better knowledge and experience than any city council member, legislator, fire marshal, or co-op board member. Any of those hearing the preceding numbers is going to be thinking, "Oh hell no!" when discussing e-bikes. The facts around most of the risk being with homemade packs or damaged packs (and even that discussion gets interesting fast) aren't going to be relevant to the decision makers.

Maybe we could educate both decision makers and (apparently) many e-bike users who are ignorant of the safety issues. But even that is going to be an uphill fight and has no guarantee of success (also depending very much on how you define "success").

 

[Gordon71]

Any consumer product that causes 191 fires in New York City in a single year is going to be banned.

Not really as cigarettes are still the major cause of fires in NYC.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Any consumer product that causes 191 fires in New York City in a single year is going to be banned.

Not really as cigarettes are still the major cause of fires in NYC.

And I simply point out that many locations have indoor smoking bans, and many apartments, condos, and nearly all hotels have indoor smoking bans. Thanks for proving my point.

 

[ChezCheese:)]

HOA's and co-ops can make any regulation they see fit until someone challenges it in court. I would consult a lawyer to see what the legal ramifications are should there be an incident.

Here's an example of a worst case scenario:

My brother lives in a NJ. co-op complex where e-bikes & batteries are prohibited inside apartments. The wording is not specific so someone decided to store & charge an e-bike outside the apartment on the enclosed patio of an adjacent building. It was a cheap bike & battery which unfortunately caused a fire. It quickly spread up the vinyl siding to the second floor apartment. It burned the roof off most of the building before the fire department got it under control. Thankfully, no one was hurt. I don't know the specifics but the bike owner now has legal problems.

View attachment 145713 View attachment 145714

My brother and several other residents were charging their bikes the same way until this incident. The co-op does not have garages and residents park outside in front of the building. My brother now runs an extension cord out the window and, temperature permitting, charges & stores the battery in the trunk of his car. He keeps the bike, without the battery, on his patio with a cover over it. He's not sure if this violates any co-op regulations and he's not about to ask. Is the bike really an e-bike if it has the battery removed? In any case, there is zero chance of the bike causing a fire without the battery.

I don't mean to scare you with this but I just want to point out it can happen. The chances of such an fire are actually quite rare but it would be a good idea to know the legal aspects should an incident occur.

Welcome to the forum and I hope you find a solution to your dilemma!

Wow. That is some kind of ugly architecture to begin with. Maybe it was aesthetic karma...

 

[dodgeman]

It is a legitimate concern. Hover boards had a problem, remember that a few years back. I’d say with a high quality bike like you bought it’s less of a concern. Just about any electric device can start a fire.

 

[Rexlion]

HOAs and Co-ops can do this. When you join to live there, you agree to abide by whatever rules they have or even later on vote to add. I would never want to live in one of those, personally. City ordinances are restrictive enough as it is without getting into a contractual situation with one of those communities.

So, if you violate the covenant, they could kick you out, and maybe more depending on what (if anything) the agreement stipulates for damages.

I think if you could remove the battery from the ebike it would become de facto a non-electric bike while in storage. If you can then store and charge the battery off-site (maybe charge it at work?) you might work around the issue with them. But if you don't have another place to stash the battery, I dunno.

The other way would be to just store and charge your ebike as planned and hope no one checks up on you, but you sorta blabbed it already and they might come around to inspect. Hmm, maybe keep the ebike elsewhere for a couple months until it blows over and they forget...?

 

[6zfshdb]

Wow. That is some kind of ugly architecture to begin with. Maybe it was aesthetic karma...

Yeah, My brothers lived there since it was built 30 years ago. Didn't look bad back then but the place has gone downhill since a Russian company took over the maintenance,

 

[Rexlion]

ii have to review my lease that I signed at closing, got to find it. I feel I would remember this, and I don't think I did. and regarding peace of mind, I agree re insurance and deep pocket and liability. where there is someone standing behind a product it is more or different that peace of mind (what is that exactly) it is accountability. someone is responsible. if a car blows up you have a manufacturer and a dealer and big insurance policies. not so much with the DIY builders or LBS pass through or little companies that rebrand after a fire. I do not want to think giant is hiding behind momentum name. grrr. at this point, I am keeping these bikes, hiding them for now. digging out my lease. I know there was no smoking but 99% sure nothing about an e-bike which leads me to believe they can go F themselves. also, they cant come in my apartment unless an emergency so I will just pt the battery in the closet. lol

Actually that's how I'd feel as well, personally: keep stuff where they aren't allowed to inspect (so long as the nosy neighbors don't interfere). And yeah, if it's not in the contract, the person you talked to is just being a housing nazi (think 'soup nazi').

"Momentum" is just a brand name Giant chose for marketing reasons. Gotta call 'em something, after all! No, they're not "hiding" behind anything; in fact I'm sure they are proud of it and would like people to know it's a brand name of Giant.

$5k? For a little bit more, maybe you could have bought an older preowned Prius with nickel metal hydride battery!

 

[Kayakguy]

Of course a co-op can have a clause to prevent hazardous materials stored in your apartment. New York, New York is doing that right now as well. Apartment fires are a real thing. Plenty of them shown on YouTube. Air Line companies have outlawed carrying them on airplanes for a couple years now.

When Boeing tried lithium batteries in their Dreamliner a few years ago, they ran into overheating problems almost immediately (don't know whether there were any fires, though).

 

[Dorkyman]

Things are now evolving quickly.

NYC is passing laws that will ban any ebike batteries that don't carry a UL sticker. Most ebike makers don't have such an endorsement and are presumably racing to get one. Once the UL thing becomes common, the co-op can modify its blanket ban to be just of non-UL batteries.

Any lithium cell fire can be a huge pain to extinguish, and of course an ebike battery pack is made up of 50+ such cells. If one fails, it will ignite its neighbors and you have an uncontrollable fire. Certified cells should be acceptable. My understanding is that the numerous cell fires were from junk Chinese battery packs (as opposed to cells made by LG, Panasonic, Sony, and other name brands).

So if I was writing the rules I would allow only UL-certified cells and ban all others, including build-it-yourself packs or recycled packs. Oh, and only UL-certified chargers also.

 

[Chibbie]

My brother now runs an extension cord out the window and, temperature permitting, charges & stores the battery in the trunk of his car.

I’m far from an electrical engineer or a fire safety expert, but this strikes me as a really bad idea for at least three reasons:

1. The trunk of the car is likely on top of the gas tank. If the battery catches fire while charging or in storage in the trunk, it may ignite the gas tank, turning the car into a flame-spewing bomb.

2. I’m pretty sure that, as with most high-wattage (voltage?) devices, the battery charger instructions probably specifically say to plug it in only directly to the wall, not via extension cord. This is because most common extension cords aren’t rated to safely carry high wattage loads.

3. Some heavy duty extension cords are safety rated to carry high loads. But they are rather expensive. I’d bet the cord that your brother is using isn’t a heavy duty cord unless he spent oodles of money getting a heavy duty cord of the requisite length to be able to reach the trunk of the car from his window (unless it’s a ground floor window right next to the car).

 

[6zfshdb]

I’m far from an electrical engineer or a fire safety expert, but this strikes me as a really bad idea for at least three reasons:

1. The trunk of the car is likely on top of the gas tank. If the battery catches fire while charging or in storage in the trunk, it may ignite the gas tank, turning the car into a flame-spewing bomb.

2. I’m pretty sure that, as with most high-wattage (voltage?) devices, the battery charger instructions probably specifically say to plug it in only directly to the wall, not via extension cord. This is because most common extension cords aren’t rated to safely carry high wattage loads.

3. Some heavy duty extension cords are safety rated to carry high loads. But they are rather expensive. I’d bet the cord that your brother is using isn’t a heavy duty cord unless he spent oodles of money getting a heavy duty cord of the requisite length to be able to reach the trunk of the car from his window (unless it’s a ground floor window right next to the car).

I can't speak for all battery chargers but the ratings on mine are all less than 400 watts. There is also no mention of not using extension cords in their respective manuals. A heavy duty extension cord is not required. My brothers parking space is 25' from his 1st floor apartment and he uses a 30' outdoor rated cord.

I have to agree, a car trunk probably isn't the safest place to charge a battery and I'm not suggesting anyone do it. There is no HOA rule against it though and in my brothers case, he has no other option. His only alternative would be to give up his ebike.

Lets face it, there is no absolutely safe place to charge an ebike battery except perhaps in the middle of an open field on a dry day with moderate temperatures and the local fire department on speed dial. All we can do is use common sense to mitigate the risks and tailor our charging habits to best match our individual living environments.

 

[Gordon71]

I’m far from an electrical engineer or a fire safety expert, but this strikes me as a really bad idea for at least three reasons:

1. The trunk of the car is likely on top of the gas tank. If the battery catches fire while charging or in storage in the trunk, it may ignite the gas tank, turning the car into a flame-spewing bomb.

2. I’m pretty sure that, as with most high-wattage (voltage?) devices, the battery charger instructions probably specifically say to plug it in only directly to the wall, not via extension cord. This is because most common extension cords aren’t rated to safely carry high wattage loads.

3. Some heavy duty extension cords are safety rated to carry high loads. But they are rather expensive. I’d bet the cord that your brother is using isn’t a heavy duty cord unless he spent oodles of money getting a heavy duty cord of the requisite length to be able to reach the trunk of the car from his window (unless it’s a ground floor window right next to the car).

 

[Gordon71]

I got to wondering if there are any warning signs that might prevent some of these fires. I have two Rad batteries that I rotate so I'm using one battery for every other ride. When charging the charger gets a little warm to the touch while the battery stays cold. When charging is complete both are cold to the touch. This is true even if I'm in a 12 hour balance charge. The charger will be warm until the battery reaches its full charge but will stay cool throughout the rest of the 12 hours. So what I'm wondering is what do I look for? If the battery was reaching some point where it could maybe start a fire are there any warning signs? Maybe the battery would start feeling a little warm to the touch during charging? Anything else? The charger getting hot to the touch rather than just warm?

 

[AHicks]

I got to wondering if there are any warning signs that might prevent some of these fires. I have two Rad batteries that I rotate so I'm using one battery for every other ride. When charging the charger gets a little warm to the touch while the battery stays cold. When charging is complete both are cold to the touch. This is true even if I'm in a 12 hour balance charge. The charger will be warm until the battery reaches its full charge but will stay cool throughout the rest of the 12 hours. So what I'm wondering is what do I look for? If the battery was reaching some point where it could maybe start a fire are there any warning signs? Maybe the battery would start feeling a little warm to the touch during charging? Anything else? The charger getting hot to the touch rather than just warm?

The issue is there are several different failure modes. If the internal pack is allowed to move around for instance, the insulation somewhere is likely going to wear to a point where a direct short is a good possibility - with predictable results.

Another common failure is the result of a failed cell. The charger is no longer able to charge the pack to the point the charger will shut off as it's designed to when the pack is fully charged - the dead cell won't allow the voltage to get high enough to allow the charger to shut off. Because of that, the charger may continue to charge, eventually overcharging the good cells to the point of overheating - again with predictable results.

Then there's the potential of what might happen with the wrong charger, a frozen battery, advanced corrosion, water intrusion, etc, etc, etc......

A UL rating is NOT going to make them dummy proof.....

 

[Gordon71]

The issue is there are several different failure modes. If the internal pack is allowed to move around for instance, the insulation somewhere is likely going to wear to a point where a direct short is a good possibility - with predictable results.

Another common failure is the result of a failed cell. The charger is no longer able to charge the pack to the point the charger will shut off as it's designed to when the pack is fully charged - the dead cell won't allow the voltage to get high enough to allow the charger to shut off. Because of that, the charger may continue to charge, eventually overcharging the good cells to the point of overheating - again with predictable results.

Then there's the potential of what might happen with the wrong charger, a frozen battery, advanced corrosion, water intrusion, etc, etc, etc......

A UL rating is NOT going to make them dummy proof.....

Ok thanks but as far as you know there is nothing I can look for that might give me some advance warning that either the battery or the charger is becoming dangerous to use just based on normal use. I know the way I use the bike as in never ride or leave the bike in any kind of inclement weather, never store the battery in direct sunlight or subject it to cold temperatures, never dropped or hit the battery, etc etc.

 

[Mr. Coffee]

Lets face it, there is no absolutely safe place to charge an ebike battery except perhaps in the middle of an open field on a dry day with moderate temperatures and the local fire department on speed dial. All we can do is use common sense to mitigate the risks and tailor our charging habits to best match our individual living environments.

Only if the field didn't have flammable vegetation like dry grass.

I'd say the least bad approaches for mitigating battery fire risk is to store and charge batteries in something well-insulated and fireproof. Two examples are using an old wood stove (and run the power cable through the chimney) and using a large concrete flower pot covered with a fireproof material (e.g. fire-resistant sheet rock or particle board would probably be good enough if the flower pot were big enough) . Then place this whole contraption outside well away (three to five meters) from anything flammable.

Also I think people should be very careful handling or using any battery that has been dropped or been on the bike after a bad crash, and it might be reasonable to always dispose of them and replace them when such things happen.

 

[AHicks]

Ok thanks but as far as you know there is nothing I can look for that might give me some advance warning that either the battery or the charger is becoming dangerous to use just based on normal use. I know the way I use the bike as in never ride or leave the bike in any kind of inclement weather, never store the battery in direct sunlight or subject it to cold temperatures, never dropped or hit the battery, etc etc.

I think the big one you might notice is the charger taking an unusually long time to fully charge the pack. That's a pretty good sign you have one or more bad cells - time to do some investigating with a voltmeter maybe?