Bosch de-restricting .

[Molly45]

Hi all, I've just acquired a 2019 Bosch CX equipped e bike, while I'm loving the 'grunt' of the motor, the 15.5 mph cut out (I'm in the UK), is a real pain.
I've done a lot of reading on the subject of removing the speed restriction on Bosch systems, and there are a lot of posts saying that Bosch can now tell if you've fitted a dongle, and will not honour any warranty claims if that is the case, I also read that manufacturers are now using anti tamper software to prevent/record any attempt to alter the speed.
So I'd love to hear from anyone who's had any real world experience of trying a dongle on a new Bosch system, successfully or otherwise.
Do they still work on new bikes?
Any warranty problems if used?
Any other experience or info?
Thanks for reading, look forward to replies.

 

[Alaskan]

I have two bosch CX bike in the USA, one a 2017 Cube Touring Hybrid 500 and the other a 2018 Riese & Muller Delight. The Cube was purchased in February 2018 on ebay from a private seller. As it had no warranty, I quickly added a badass box which is quick and easy to install without any tools or takiing anything apart. It worked okay but it did so by tricking the speed sensor into recognizing every other rotation which resulted in halved speed readings. I later installed a Bikespeed RS on the motor inside the housing. It is fantastic with accurate speed info and support limited only by the gearing and how fast you can peddle. In the case of the Delight I made my peace with not having a warranty on the motor in favor of having a snappy CX drive with no upper limit on assisted speed. Hving 4 Bosch powered bikes, I have a high degree of confidence that they are durable and I am not likely to have issues. Nevertheless I am prepared to step up and pay for a replacement motor should their be a motor failure...a price I am willing to pay,

 

[blakjac]

I recently purchased a Tern GSD S00 which is equipped with the Bosch XX motor. I really like the Bosch Speed motor because here in the US it can reach 28MPH. However, with a cargo bike I thought the CX was a better choice. My logic is that I can trick the CX motor to go faster but I cannot trick the Speed motor to have more torque. I will ride it for a while and see if I can live with the 20 MPH limit. if not, I will modify and accept the risks associated with modifying it. I also believe the reward of going faster is more than the risk of losing a warranty.

 

[Alaskan]

Two of my bikes have the 28. mph HS motor and two have the derestricted CX. The HS bikes have Rohloff hubs and are great but not as "peppy" or lively as the CX. I consider the derestriced CX to be the best of both worlds and wish Bosch offered a 28mph CX, a model for which I would pay extra. They don't so I paid $150 for the BIkespeed and assume the loss of warranty risk. Well worth it IMO

 

[Molly45]

I agree with those sentiments, my main concern was regarding the alledged anti tamper software, and whether that could potentially render a bike useless if one attempted to alter it.
This is why I'm particularly interested to hear from people with 2019 versions who've tried it.

 

[batmick1]

I have 2017 Haibike XDuro Trekking RX with the CX drive and 20mph restriction. I immediately bought the Peartune MSO chip and installed it to remove the restriction. I was worried when I took the bike to a local dealer for a software update and removed the chip for that purpose but the scan revealed no evidence of tampering. The next time I brought it in to be hooked up I did not even remove the chip. Same result, the Bosch diagnostics didn't see a thing. I am not sure how it would for the Peartune, which basically takes the speed sensor input and modulates it so that the bike's computer thinks it is going much slower than it actually is. You're not tampering with the Bosch electronics themselves, you're just fooling with the input. I am fairly certain even the newer versions would not be able to tell.

 

[Alaskan]

I would not count on it. The EU has mandated detection software modifications to ferret out hacks that turn a class 1 bike into a class 3. In the EU a class 3 must have rear brake lights, a horn, high and low beam headlight be registered, have a lit license plate and must ride on the road with other vehicles...no bike paths. I am unaware of anyone disabling bikes detected with speed hack but it clearly voids the Bosch warranty.

 

[batmick1]

I would not count on it. The EU has mandated detection software modifications to ferret out hacks that turn a class 1 bike into a class 3. In the EU a class 3 must have rear brake lights, a horn, high and low beam headlight be registered, have a lit license plate and must ride on the road with other vehicles...no bike paths. I am unaware of anyone disabling bikes detected with speed hack but it clearly voids the Bosch warranty.

I am aware of the warranty issue and as a recovering German, also aware of the highly regulated nature of e-bikes. I'm just not sure how the system would know. Unless there are now tamper proof connectors to prevent plugging in a speed chip I am not sure how they would detect this.

 

[Alaskan]

The Bosch ebike motor records and can transfer an incredible amount data. I do not know what the mechanism is. I cant't imagine it is too difficult for a device that is software driven, that records loads of user data and can share that in the cloud to included information about any alteration in it own internal circuitry or changes in information flow through an external device being installed in line with two of its four multiplugs.

 

[Molly45]

I am aware of the warranty issue and as a recovering German, also aware of the highly regulated nature of e-bikes. I'm just not sure how the system would know. Unless there are now tamper proof connectors to prevent plugging in a speed chip I am not sure how they would detect this.

The system already records loads of data, speed, crank rotation, cadence,
motor assist level, and so on, I would think it would be very straightforward to record if the system had been tampered with, for example, it would only need to record someone riding at 25mph with the motor still on.
That's why I'm very keen to hear from anyone who's dongled a Bosch bike with latest motor/software combination.

 

[batmick1]

The system already records loads of data, speed, crank rotation, cadence,
motor assist level, and so on, I would think it would be very straightforward to record if the system had been tampered with, for example, it would only need to record someone riding at 25mph with the motor still on.
That's why I'm very keen to hear from anyone who's dongled a Bosch bike with latest motor/software combination.

That’s the thing. The Peartune fakes the speed sensor input so the computer thinks it is only going well below 20mph and the motor doesn’t cut off. It doesn’t tamper with the system itself.

 

[PaD]

I would not count on it. The EU has mandated detection software modifications to ferret out hacks that turn a class 1 bike into a class 3. In the EU a class 3 must have rear brake lights, a horn, high and low beam headlight be registered, have a lit license plate and must ride on the road with other vehicles...no bike paths. I am unaware of anyone disabling bikes detected with speed hack but it clearly voids the Bosch warranty.

A bit of nitpicking.
Everything you say is correct except for the class denomination in EU.
The e-bike class denominations in EU are Class 1 for speed pedelecs (45kph) and Class 2 for the bikes restricted to 25kph.
The attempts to hinder speed tuning has gone so far that the wheel circumference adjustment in the Specialized Mission Control app is no longer active. And this function was just able to adjust +- 5 or maybe 7% to adjust for different tires. Specialized dealers can adjust this.

 

[Sweetwater]

I'm using the Badass4 dongle on my 2018 Raleigh Mangum IE. It is Class 1 in the USA with 20 mph cutout. It has a higher torque than my class 3, S pedelec and the de restriction is awesome. That bike climbs and cruises somewhat better than the S version. I wasn't looking for more speed but really found the cutoff annoying and disruptive on many rides. I have found the EMTB boost option to be far superior in efficiency than the 4 individual levels on the S version. The Raleigh has the Purion display and it's so basic that I question whether there's any record of the dongle recorded. I guess I'll find out if I need warranty work.

 

[Molly45]

First off, thank you everyone who has taken the time to read and reply to this thread, I do appreciate it, but, sadly, I'm no nearer to getting an answer to my original questions.
It's clear there are no problems with fitting any sort of dongle to older bikes, but what I really need to know, is that still true for the very latest Bosch software version?
Still love to hear from someone who's done a new Bosch bike.

 

[webcurl]

That’s the thing. The Peartune fakes the speed sensor input so the computer thinks it is only going well below 20mph and the motor doesn’t cut off. It doesn’t tamper with the system itself.

I believe the Badassbox halves the speed once maximum is reached (25km/h becomes 12, 40km/h becomes 20, etc) but the bosch display still shows the speed rising and falling inbetween, not sure about the Peartune.
But if that happens then the Bosch system has all the information needed to sense from a start of 0km/h, over time, that there is no abnormal strain on the motor (electrical power consumption going up hill or headwind), the speed has been rising and has reached 25km/h and there has not been extra user input (Torque sensor) from the rider AND the motor is still going AND therefore predicted to go over 25km/h and keep going.
In this case it's not hard for a system to summarize that it's been tampered with.
Might be even easier to determine without all of those factors, for example the speed sensed from the speed sensor/magnet goes from 25km/h to 12km/h in only a few seconds!
Your Bosch dealer might be able to tell you if the information stored in your motor regarding Tampering has anything in it. eg. "Tampered = Yes/No" and "No. of Tampering incidents". Of course that information along with your motor's serial no. could easily be sent to Bosch over the internet.

 

[rhino7]

First off, thank you everyone who has taken the time to read and reply to this thread, I do appreciate it, but, sadly, I'm no nearer to getting an answer to my original questions.
It's clear there are no problems with fitting any sort of dongle to older bikes, but what I really need to know, is that still true for the very latest Bosch software version?
Still love to hear from someone who's done a new Bosch bike.

I have a 2019 Bosch Performance CX + Nyon equipped bike, purchased in October 2018, and it works just fine with a Badass dongle. Bosch has released no update to the software of any of the components of the bike since my purchase.

My understanding is that they introduced the detection algorithms for the 2019 models with the intention of the system taking action to stop the use of tuning in the updates for 2020. So long as the software isn’t updated by a dealer, when the 2020 software becomes available, there is no problem on a 2019 model.

 

[Molly45]

I have a 2019 Bosch Performance CX + Nyon equipped bike, purchased in October 2018, and it works just fine with a Badass dongle. Bosch has released no update to the software of any of the components of the bike since my purchase.

My understanding is that they introduced the detection algorithms for the 2019 models with the intention of the system taking action to stop the use of tuning in the updates for 2020. So long as the software isn’t updated by a dealer, when the 2020 software becomes available, there is no problem on a 2019 model.

Thank you, that's what wanted to hear.

 

[webcurl]

I have a 2019 Bosch Performance CX + Nyon equipped bike, purchased in October 2018, and it works just fine with a Badass dongle. Bosch has released no update to the software of any of the components of the bike since my purchase.

My understanding is that they introduced the detection algorithms for the 2019 models with the intention of the system taking action to stop the use of tuning in the updates for 2020. So long as the software isn’t updated by a dealer, when the 2020 software becomes available, there is no problem on a 2019 model.

Algorithms are in software (firmware), they can be applied to older and newer models of the motor. When i last updated my CX firmware in Nov 2018 to 1.8.0.0 there was the "Tampering" section in the dealer report. Noone will say when and if these algorithms have been introduced and if they were, they are usually described as "Function Optimizations", etc.
Same as other software companies disguise internal operational stuff.
As i've said before i know of a shop that has been asked by an insurance company to find out if the bike has been tampered with and that was in 2017/18.

 

[rhino7]

Algorithms are in software (firmware), they can be applied to older and newer models of the motor. When i last updated my CX firmware in Nov 2018 to 1.8.0.0 there was the "Tampering" section in the dealer report. Noone will say when and if these algorithms have been introduced and if they were, they are usually described as "Function Optimizations", etc.
Same as other software companies disguise internal operational stuff.
As i've said before i know of a shop that has been asked by an insurance company to find out if the bike has been tampered with and that was in 2017/18.

Yes of course! I meant to say 2019 version of the software rather than the motor.

 

[Molly45]

Yes of course! I meant to say 2019 version of the software rather than the motor.

Could you please tell me what your software version is?
Just checked mine and it's 1.8.3.0, hardware version 0.0.6.0.
Thanks.