Bikes with Gen 4 Bosch Performance Line Speed

[elliot friedman]

My class 3 Bosch performance ebike can go as slow as any Class 1 or 2.

 

[RockyMtnHoot]

If you think so, ride a motorcycle into a bike path.

I find it odd any e-biker would liken a class 3 e-bike to a motorcycle. I say this as a near daily rider of the TR1 Speed. I ride, almost exclusively, the trail system in and around the Denver metro.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

My class 3 Bosch performance ebike can go as slow as any Class 1 or 2.

Or, it can ride as fast as 28 mph.

 

[elliot friedman]

Or, it can ride as fast as 28 mph.

Only if I deem it safe to do so.

Is that a Hofner bass?

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Only if I deem it safe to do so.

It is not about just you...

Is that a Hofner bass?

An Epiphone copy.

 

[RockyMtnHoot]

It is not about just you...

An Epiphone copy.

It’s not “just about you” — please elaborate. I mean a rider rides recklessly not because he/she can travel 8 mph faster... a rider rides recklessly because he/she is reckless. My initial comment, Stefan, was made because I don’t understand where a class 3 e-bike threatens others any more than a class 1 or a class 2. It is the rider that is a potential and not the bike... isn’t it?

And, I don’t understand the thought process (especially coming from an e-bike enthusiast) that a class 3 bike is similar to a motorcycle. If my TR1 Speed is similar to any vehicle it is similar to a class 1 e-bike: It is quiet; it weighs the same; it looks the same; it must be pedaled; and, it requires the same common sense when riding it that a class 1 or 2 requires. It also requires the same common sense that any non-motorized bicycle requires some of which are pedaled on bike paths well in excess of 20-25mph by their riders.

In fact, from my perspective, a class 3 e-bike is far more similar to a non-motorized bicycle than it is a gas-powered motor bike. A motorcycle enters an entirely different realm: It is LOUD, it is heavy, it is generally large in form factor, it doesn’t require pedaling to generate motion, and a motorcycle is capable of immense bursts of power and speed, intentional or accidental.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

It’s not “just about you” — please elaborate. I mean a rider rides recklessly not because he/she can travel 8 mph faster... a rider rides recklessly because he/she is reckless. My initial comment, Stefan, was made because I don’t understand where a class 3 e-bike threatens others any more than a class 1 or a class 2. It is the rider that is a potential and not the bike... isn’t it?

Yes, it is about reckless riders. The fact majority of the Forum members own e-bikes illegal per Federal law (> 750 W) is the proof of the potential irresponsibility.

What's more? E-bikes are much heavier than traditional bicycles. Their momentum (mass * velocity) makes them more dangerous. Also, injuries at a crash at speed > 20 mph are far more dangerous; not only for the rider but also for innocent people around.

It is not without reason lawmakers worldwide define Speed Pedelecs as the moped and allow riding them on roads only. There are countries such as Canada or Australia where S-Pedelecs are not allowed at all.

Class 3 e-bike is also more dangerous than, say, a road bike because accelerating to high speed is so fast and easy...

 

[pmcdonald]

The old 'it's the owner, not the gun' argument..

If humans could be relied on to act courteously at all times we wouldn't need laws, period. We'd always be acting to minimise risk and maximise the enjoyment of other road and path users. Alas, until such time magically occurs regulations are there to give authorities the stick they occasionally need to whack the discourteous duffer puffers into line.

It's always a balance for legislators between the rights of the individual and the utility of the mass. The US has gone one extreme with it, Canada has found a middle ground, Australia (in adopting the UKs regulation wholesale) has gone the other extreme.

Further, I'd argue it's human nature to push the boundaries. I see it on a popular local shared pathway all the time. I've seen countless near misses (and the occasional hit) as the (unpowered) road warriors blast past pedestrians in their quest to earn a new button or whatever on Strava. They may well have all acted courteously at first. Bit by bit dangerous behaviour is justified and normalised. The end result for me is that pathway is no longer somewhere I'd take my young kids for a ride - it's too dangerous.

For the record I hate our AU 25km/h limits, but while ever they're the law I'll begrudgingly comply. (Contrary to popular belief we Australians love our laws - one upshot of which is our relatively Covid-free country.) I have written to MPs requesting a revision, but don't expect action on that front anytime soon. Anyway, philosophical digression, apologies.

 

[Akrotiri]

The old 'it's the owner, not the gun' argument..

If humans could be relied on to act courteously at all times we wouldn't need laws, period. We'd always be acting to minimise risk and maximise the enjoyment of other road and path users. Alas, until such time magically occurs regulations are there to give authorities the stick they occasionally need to whack the discourteous duffer puffers into line.

It's always a balance for legislators between the rights of the individual and the utility of the mass. The US has gone one extreme with it, Canada has found a middle ground, Australia (in adopting the UKs regulation wholesale) has gone the other extreme.

Further, I'd argue it's human nature to push the boundaries. I see it on a popular local shared pathway all the time. I've seen countless near misses (and the occasional hit) as the (unpowered) road warriors blast past pedestrians in their quest to earn a new button or whatever on Strava. They may well have all acted courteously at first. Bit by bit dangerous behaviour is justified and normalised. The end result for me is that pathway is no longer somewhere I'd take my young kids for a ride - it's too dangerous.

For the record I hate our AU 25km/h limits, but while ever they're the law I'll begrudgingly comply. (Contrary to popular belief we Australians love our laws - one upshot of which is our relatively Covid-free country.) I have written to MPs requesting a revision, but don't expect action on that front anytime soon. Anyway, philosophical digression, apologies.

You had me agreeing with mostly everything until the COVID free comment.

Australia is literally the largest island on the planet. It’s the most remote major country in the world after the most remote country in the world - New Zealand.

Australia also boasts the highest land to human ratio out of all countries. Meaning that it’s citizens have the most space per person compared to crowded Europe or the Eastern sea board of the US. Australia is very nearly as large as the contiguous United States but with a minuscule population of only 25million people. Only twice the population number of Greece which is geographically the size of the US state of Connecticut. The United States has 330 million people. The EU which is smaller than both the US and Australia has 400 million people.

Sorry but your politicians are not smart either. You had a PM eating an onion on camera as if it were an apple not too long ago.

Geographic location, open space and population plays a huge role in infection rates in countries and of-course Australia too (luck) as is the case in all historical Pandemics,COVID especially.

Taiwan similarly benefited from its island nation status. And by the way the Pandemic isn’t over and don’t expect it to be for another 18months even with vaccines.

Hate to derail the thread but I needed to call you out on that statement. Most of everything else you said I agree.

 

[RockyMtnHoot]

Yes, it is about reckless riders. The fact majority of the Forum members own e-bikes illegal per Federal law (> 750 W) is the proof of the potential irresponsibility.

What's more? E-bikes are much heavier than traditional bicycles. Their momentum (mass * velocity) makes them more dangerous. Also, injuries at a crash at speed > 20 mph are far more dangerous; not only for the rider but also for innocent people around.

It is not without reason lawmakers worldwide define Speed Pedelecs as the moped and allow riding them on roads only. There are countries such as Canada or Australia where S-Pedelecs are not allowed at all.

Class 3 e-bike is also more dangerous than, say, a road bike because accelerating to high speed is so fast and easy...

You are now merely making a comparison to regular bikes. That has nothing to do with your initial claim. I brought up regular bicycles only because I see them far more similar to even class 3 than a motorcycle, or even the smallest moped for that matter. I said this as a matter of emphasis.

I mean if weight is at issue, given the physics to which you refer, class 3 eBikes are STILL are more similar to a regular bike and, obviously, indistinguishable from other eBikes. All bikes I believe that should unequivocally legally share the same trails and paths. Consider that your average road or mountain bike weighs in the neighborhood of 30 pounds. My class 3 weighs 60. The average moped weighs well in excess of 150 pounds while scooters are 200-300. A full-fledged motorcycle? A small one is 400 and easily up to 1000. To call a class 3 similar to a motorcycle is simply unfair and innacurate. To want to draw the line between different speeds of eBikes is, again, “a bit absurd,” in my opinion, for all of the reasons I have stated.

And, what makes *owning* and fast ebike irresponsible? Such an assumption seems to defy logic. I guess it is safe to say you don’t own a class 3? Maybe even safe to say you haven’t much experience with one? No doubt this holds true with the lawmakers drawing up the rules. They have not a clue what it feels like riding a class 1 versus a class 3 and no idea what really might be at issue when on the trail.

 

[Akrotiri]

He owns class 3 ebikes and has them insured with license plates, registration, insurance and brake lighting.

You are now merely making a comparison to regular bikes. That has nothing to do with your initial claim. I brought up regular bicycles only because I see them far more similar to even class 3 than a motorcycle, or even the smallest moped for that matter. I said this as a matter of emphasis.

I mean if weight is at issue, given the physics to which you refer, class 3 eBikes are STILL are more similar to a regular bike and, obviously, indistinguishable from other eBikes. All bikes I believe that should unequivocally legally share the same trails and paths. Consider that your average road or mountain bike weighs in the neighborhood of 30 pounds. My class 3 weighs 60. The average moped weighs well in excess of 150 pounds while scooters are 200-300. A full-fledged motorcycle? A small one is 400 and easily up to 1000. To call a class 3 similar to a motorcycle is simply unfair and innacurate. To want to draw the line between different speeds of eBikes is, again, “a bit absurd,” in my opinion, for all of the reasons I have stated.

And, what makes *owning* and fast ebike irresponsible? Such an assumption seems to defy logic. I guess it is safe to say you don’t own a class 3? Maybe even safe to say you haven’t much experience with one? No doubt this holds true with the lawmakers drawing up the rules. They have not a clue what it feels like riding a class 1 versus a class 3 and no idea what really might be at issue when on the trail.

 

[RockyMtnHoot]

View attachment 73319

He owns class 3 ebikes and has them insured with license plates, registration, insurance and brake lighting.

Wonderful; therefore, class 3 eBikes should not share trail space with class 1 eBikes because the fella who owns of three of them feels like they are more like a motorcycle than a class 1?

Shall we not enter into evidence the above-stated differences between class 1, class 3 and motorcycles?

We know the physical differences between class 3 and motorcycles are vast. Th differences between class 1 and class 3?

8 mph when one decides to use it. Guess that makes it a motorcycle.

 

[MartsEbike]

You lot are doing it wrong, you need a man with a Class 3 Red flag! 4mph! That's safety for you! None of your flashing lights malarkey!

 

[MartsEbike]

Joking aside. We don't have the different classes here in the UK, anything larger than 250w is considered a Moped, and you'd have to get it registered/insured etc..

Personally, I have a 1000w bike, it will do about 35mph easily enough, moped speeds, but I have to say I find the extra power to be beneficial - and feel safer for it. In the UK we have heavy traffic, and in many places, narrow roads, being able to keep up with traffic is much safer than having them overtake you at 30cm distance.

If you have a choice, I'd always opt for the higher power.

 

[pmcdonald]

Sorry but your politicians are not smart either. You had a PM eating an onion on camera as if it were an apple not too long ago.

We can all agree he was an idiot.

 

[webcurl]

The old 'it's the owner, not the gun' argument..

If humans could be relied on to act courteously at all times we wouldn't need laws, period. We'd always be acting to minimise risk and maximise the enjoyment of other road and path users. Alas, until such time magically occurs regulations are there to give authorities the stick they occasionally need to whack the discourteous duffer puffers into line.

It's always a balance for legislators between the rights of the individual and the utility of the mass. The US has gone one extreme with it, Canada has found a middle ground, Australia (in adopting the UKs regulation wholesale) has gone the other extreme.

Further, I'd argue it's human nature to push the boundaries. I see it on a popular local shared pathway all the time. I've seen countless near misses (and the occasional hit) as the (unpowered) road warriors blast past pedestrians in their quest to earn a new button or whatever on Strava. They may well have all acted courteously at first. Bit by bit dangerous behaviour is justified and normalised. The end result for me is that pathway is no longer somewhere I'd take my young kids for a ride - it's too dangerous.

For the record I hate our AU 25km/h limits, but while ever they're the law I'll begrudgingly comply. (Contrary to popular belief we Australians love our laws - one upshot of which is our relatively Covid-free country.) I have written to MPs requesting a revision, but don't expect action on that front anytime soon. Anyway, philosophical digression, apologies.

You had me too agreeing with everything until the Covid and especially "we Australians love our laws"!
My next Aussie vote is for an "honorable minister for ethics"

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

I have a 1000w bike, it will do about 35mph easily enough, moped speeds, but I have to say I find the extra power to be beneficial

What is the cost of registration and insurance for your bike in the UK?

 

[webcurl]

Australia also boasts the highest land to human ratio out of all countries. Meaning that it’s citizens have the most space per person compared to crowded Europe or the Eastern sea board of the US.

Yes but with 86% urbanisation, so those 22 million (out of 25.7 million) Aussies don't have as much space as what you are talking about.
Some don't even have a backyard to grill Lamb for a Yiros!

 

[pmcdonald]

You had me too agreeing with everything until the Covid and especially "we Australians love our laws"!

You don't think our leadership and population have done a reasonable job at suppressing the virus here?

I heard an interesting explanation the other day about our love of laws (Australia is heavily regulated) and our general compliance at following them.

Most countries formed organically, starting as settlements that then eventually formed a government as a natural consequence. Australia was the rare opposite (at least the white colonial part). Our nation as we know it was formed by a government with a government and the associated laws in place from the get go.

It's a compelling distinction, as it implies we never really went through that stage as a nation of questioning the extent of governance and reach. I'm not suggesting it's better or worse than alternatives, just that it puts us Australians in a different mindset to the US or many European countries.

 

[webcurl]

You don't think our leadership and population have done a reasonable job at suppressing the virus here?

I heard an interesting explanation the other day about our love of laws (Australia is heavily regulated) and our general compliance at following them.

Most countries formed organically, starting as settlements that then eventually formed a government as a natural consequence. Australia was the rare opposite (at least the white colonial part). Our nation as we know it was formed by a government with a government and the associated laws in place from the get go.

It's a compelling distinction, as it implies we never really went through that stage as a nation of questioning the extent of governance and reach. I'm not suggesting it's better or worse than alternatives, just that it puts us Australians in a different mindset to the US or many European countries.

We did probably the same things as some EU countries but as previously said, us being a large island has helped immensely.
And i am one who's mind is hardly ever set!