Battery pack re-celling

[Nearchos]

Which battery pack brand is the most re-celling friendly?

If I want to buy an e-bike that allows me to replace the cells of the battery without throwing the whole battery pack away every time I need a new battery, which battery pack brand should I be looking for?

Even if we accept that dolphin battery packs are the easiest to re-cell, do certain brands make it harder to have their integrated battery packs refurbished compared to other brands?

 

[Nearchos]

I just wanted to ask you, did you do the math?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you won't be saving much money by replacing all the cells your own.
For example, if you purchase cells individually, you won't be saving much money compare to battery builders who would purchase in thousands of batches.
Not just cells, but you need proper equipment, tools, materials, most importantly skills and knowledge.

In my opinion, it would be much safer and even cheaper to just buy a pack from reputable battery builder.

What you can do is though, buy an ebike with popular battery case, such as Reention or Hailong type of batteries.
So that you won't be stuck with some kind of proprietary battery.

I think the only time that's beneficial for knowing how to build your own battery is, if you were to build a custom pack.

Thanks!

I do not intend to refurbish it myself. But I have noticed that even professional re-cellers cannot open all battery packs...

You could call this environmental consciousness and a stand in favour of circular economy principles.
But, ultimately, my main concern is that if I buy a battery pack that cannot be refurbished and then I cannot find the exact same pack in the market after, say 10 years, the whole ebike is worthless... And this can happen even with the most reputable battery producers. They do not have to produce the same battery pack after ten years, technology moves on.
In my view, this is the biggest disadvantage of an e-bike vs a traditional bike. When you buy a good traditional bike you do not have to worry that the whole thing will be useless after ten years because e.g. break technology has advanced that much, that it is impossible to find new breaks. You know that if you maintain your traditional bike well, you can keep it for decades. With an ebike you cannot be certain of that, and the main reason is battery technology advances.

...So who makes battery packs that can be re-celled easily, even in ten years from now??

 

[harryS]

Ten years from now, we won't be using 18650 cells for ebikes. Something safer and better will come along. Don't worry about it,
.
I've used downtube mounted batteries since 2015. Dolphins, Hailongs, and bottle batteries. I also had one bike with the rear mounted Silverfish, one of the first styles. I think the Silverfish is a well designed case, with an extruded middle case, and heavy plastic end pieces. It is outmoded though, while still found on many entry level ebikes, because only 60% of its space is used to hold the cells. The rest is wasted on fuses holders, key mechanism. etc. Meanwhile, the Hailong uses 90% of its volume for cells, but the wires and circuit board are just wedged in. Way too much hand labor needed. It's going to go away.
.
If you buy a bike with one of the above style batteries, you can always buy a new battery. Re-celling is expensive manual labor. A new battery uses hand labor too, but it's cheap overseas labor. A lot of your high volume scooter packs are designed with minimal need for hand wiring and that will happen with ebike packs.


.

 

[Nearchos]

Ten years from now, we won't be using 18650 cells for ebikes. Something safer and better will come along. Don't worry about it,
.
I've used downtube mounted batteries since 2015. Dolphins, Hailongs, and bottle batteries. I also had one bike with the rear mounted Silverfish, one of the first styles. I think the Silverfish is a well designed case, with an extruded middle case, and heavy plastic end pieces. It is outmoded though, while still found on many entry level ebikes, because only 60% of its space is used to hold the cells. The rest is wasted on fuses holders, key mechanism. etc. Meanwhile, the Hailong uses 90% of its volume for cells, but the wires and circuit board are just wedged in. Way too much hand labor needed. It's going to go away.
.
If you buy a bike with one of the above style batteries, you can always buy a new battery. Re-celling is expensive manual labor. A new battery uses hand labor too, but it's cheap overseas labor. A lot of your high volume scooter packs are designed with minimal need for hand wiring and that will happen with ebike packs.

Thanks! I was thinking of 21700 Cells actually because you are right.

I found some useful input on battery pack types that are re-cell friendly on this webpage (no advertising intended, I don't know these guys):
https://www.electricbikebatteryrepairs.co.uk/e-bike-battery-types-we-cannot-re-cell/

But then I googled it further and realised that even with a ''dolphin'' you cannot be 100% certain you will be able to have the battery pack refurbished. It seems that some chinese manufacturers make refurbishment impossible deliberately, to make sure you go back to them for a new purchase.

Given though that ebike battery packs are very likely to be made in China anyway:
https://www.gadgetreview.com/best-ebike-battery

(no advertising intended again, I don't know these guys either, I just googled these stuff up),

I want to restrict my ebike market research to battery packs that I know in advance to be refurbishable. Hence, the question:


Which company makes battery packs that can be re-celled easily?



All inputs welcome people, thanks a lot for the sophisticated answers already received!!

 

[tomjasz]

If that's your concern, then buy a generic Chinese ebike with Hailong type (or even Reention Polly) battery.
Those packs are quite universal.

I'm sure you have seen these around.
These batteries are made to be attached on two or three water bottle holder holes.
You can use these battery on traditional bike to ebike conversion as well. So it's quite universal.

This way, in 10 years, you would not have to throw your entire bike away just because they no longer make the battery.
Even if they do not make this particular type of battery, you wouldn't care because there will always be a battery that will attach on water bottle holder holes.

You’re really missing the facts here. Those generic packs, especially the Hailong are often glued packs. Overstuffed with no cell separation. They are cheap. I have 3or 4 left from my battery building years. They are sold with separators but buyers want more Ah and so UPP and their ilk stuff the cases. Reention poly cases are a bit higher priced and better quality. There are several sizes but the same thing is done by generic builders.

The only case IME and IMO where rebuilding would be economical are those proprietary packs where components aren’t available outside of the OEM parts stream.

BTW, the bases aren’t universal. That sucks but that’s the way it is.

 

[tomjasz]

Which company makes battery packs that can be re-celled easily?

Sorry but please read my previous post. Those cases a cheap. There’s no real economy in reusing. Recycle.
Ask and make certain your builds are using cell separation and then learn good battery management practices.
i recently retired Reention Dolphin packs from early 2015.

 

[Nearchos]

Sorry but please read my previous post. Those cases a cheap. There’s no real economy in reusing. Recycle.
Ask and make certain your builds are using cell separation and then learn good battery management practices.
i recently retired Reention Dolphin packs from early 2015.

I have read it and thank you for it! Just inviting further inputs from others, that's all.

 

[tomjasz]

you won't be stuck after 10 years when Hailong no longer makes battery.

I wish that were true. Some early Hailong Shark cases are already obsolete and bases are unavailable.

I dug one out of my battery parts.

65 cell max with cell holders.

 

[Nearchos]

Sorry I meant universal, as in, you won't be stuck after 10 years when Hailong no longer makes battery.
For example, many ebikes require a battery pack that's very specific to the frame.

I was not talking about cheap craftmanship of some of the builders.

I was saying, if you get a bike with Hailong, you can still replace it with Reention Polly because they are both compatible with 2 hole (sometimes 3 hole) waterbottle holders.
You don't need any specific frame that's meant for any particular battery, that's what I meant by universal.

While I like the looks of (invisible) integrated battery packs, I am also beginning to think that for a long term battery solution, I should better avoid them... The "water bottle" solution is probably the safest way forward...
Even if a dolphin case needs to end up in the bin, not having to worry about the dimensions of the frame while looking for a replacement makes life easier.

 

[tomjasz]

once your battery is out of production, you won't have much choice.

We’re on the same page, I think, just misunderstanding the others point.

Maybe I’m not being clear. There are already disappointed Hailong case owners that can’t get a second base to move a battery between bikes. The cases are similar but the bases are different.

Because even if your last generation Hailong battery is obsolete, there will be a new generation.

Right, and the new generation May well have a different base and the previous generation case won’t fit the base.
Two water bottle screws do not make a universal fit. BTW we’re talking CASES and mounting here, not batteries.

Again, In seven years and hundreds of sales we frequently saw frustrated customers wanting to move batteries between bikes but dissimilar bases with Hailong “shark” cases didn’t allow that. BTW Hailong cases (Shan Shan) or considerably poorer quality than Poly (Reention). I’d recommend any buyers look to builders using Reention cases.

Here’s what my friend Paul Lynch wrote about Hailong cases and why they prefer Reention Poly.
(BTW the Hailong case I picture will have my Grin Baserunner installed and finished this winter) There are a couple of comments that are a bit overplayed, but generally I agree.

The Shark style case is a popular choice, due to it’s small size, for it’s relatively high capacity. It’s long, but sleek profile, means it can fit into most frames and it looks pretty good. However, it was not all good. The Hailong case that was used for most of the Shark batteries that are in circulation, suffered from several issues.​

The issues on the Hailong case included:​

• There is space for a controller on the Hailong Slider. This controller (that is rarely even fitted) takes away valuable space from the battery. It also means that the slider mounting points do not align with the water bottle mounting points on most bikes (some will drill a hole through the controller and add an additional bolt, or even drill a hole through their bike frame..). The slider section on the Hailong is only thin plastic, with no metallic structure.
• The tabs on the base of the case and the slider (these hold the battery to the slider) are very thin on the Hailong case (~2.7mm) and poorly supported/designed. Also, due to the Short length of the slider (due to the controller), there are only 6 tabs.
• Thin materials used throughout the case, with little supporting structure. Typically, the material thickness is ~2.8mm.
• The Hailong Case is designed for 52 cells (13 series, 4 parallel), which is commonly referred to as a 48V battery. In order to fit the additional cells to make it into a 14 series, 52V battery, the standard cell holder must be discarded and the cells glued together. Without the cell holders, safety is compromised and the removal of the cell holder structure, will not help with the case’s structural integrity.
• Hailong cases were generally only supplied with a DC2.1 charge connector. These are rated 3A (which is not much for a battery that might be almost 14Ah in capacity).

These issues are all addressed in the EM3ev Super Shark… and then some:​

• The controller case in the slider (that most do not even use) has been removed, freeing up space to make a 56 cell (52V) battery, without compromises.
• The slider on the Super Shark has a metal support and it has fixing points along almost it’s entire length, so you shouldn’t have any trouble to fit it to the standard bottle mounts on most bikes.
• The tabs on the base of the Super Shark case are ~5mm thick and well supported. There are 8 of these stronger tabs and they are more evenly spaced along the entire length of the battery.
• Material thickness is ~3.3mm or more and there are numerous supports within the case, to improve rigidity and strength.
• The EM3ev Super Shark case is designed for 56 cells, including cell holder and BMS. We design and manufacture the CNC cell holder, so it is a snug fit inside the case.
• We have designed and manufactured custom terminations for this layout, with cell level fusing on every cell, whilst also minimising voltage drop, to make the EM3ev Super Shark 1 of the safest Ebike Batteries on the market (regardless of price).
• We have fitted 1 of the most advanced BMS you will find in any Ebike Battery to keep the battery safe, performing 100%, to be reliable for the long-term and to give the user access to data for info and diagnosis.
• Our Super Shark comes with a high current charge plug, rated for around 8A. Our 2-wire type BMS means you can actually safely charge through the discharge leads as well.

 

[tomjasz]

Even if a dolphin case needs to end up in the bin, not having to worry about the dimensions of the frame while looking for a replacement makes life easier.

The Dolphin is made by Reention and is a very durable case, AND it’s been around for a decade. The only limitation for some were the attainable Ah, but with larger mAh cells that’s improved. Poly series from Reention is also a very durable case AND has versions sized to use 21700 cells. Some of us are really liking our 21700 builds. Really nice powerful cells!
If you’re anywhere near EM3ev I’m certain Paul would welcome a visit! He’s still using 18650 cells but have really great quality builds. Build details that Jenny and other Chinese builders have yet to match,
I‘m REALLY happy with my 3 new builds using Reention Poly cases. One with 21700 cells from Jenny and 2 with 18650 cells from EM3ev.

 

[tomjasz]

While I like the looks of (invisible) integrated battery packs, I am also beginning to think that for a long term battery solution, I should better avoid them...

Several are relatively common and also made by Reention. I’d not hesitate to own an eBike using a non proprietary case from Reention like the Dorado, since it’s used by a number of manufacturers. A bit of research and you’re golden.

 

[Nearchos]

Several are relatively common and also made by Reention. I’d not hesitate to own an eBike using a non proprietary case from Reention like the Dorado, since it’s used by a number of manufacturers. A bit of research and you’re golden.

DORADO-FAT - Simino Ebike

www.siminoebike.com

I hear you...

 

[Nearchos]

this is a very useful discussion guys, thanks a lot!!

 

[tomjasz]

I still think we're not on the same page.
Maybe I should have made it clearer, I'm speaking under the premise of replacing the battery cradle as well.
Whereas (I think) you are talking about simply buying a new battery pack, without replacing the cradle.

Here's what I think about the point you're making: (please correct me if I'm wrong)
- If current generation Hailong goes out of production, the next generation may not have the same battery cradle (base), so if you have a bike with the current generation Hailong casing, the next generation Hailong may not fit.

My point:
- It wouldn't matter if the next generation battery has different battery cradle, as long as the new battery cradle is made to fit the 2 water bottle holder holes.
- You would have to go through a mild inconvenience of replacing the last generation cradle to the new generation cradle (base).

I think what you were saying is, the new generation battery won't necessarily have the same cradle.
But what I'm saying is, you can simply replace the cradle, and what I meant by "universal" was that, most (if not many) bikes will have 2 holes for water bottle.

But my point was, if you get more proprietary pack, such as Bosch or Yamaha, you can just put these packs on any bike frame (even if they have the standard 2 water bottle holes).
Also, I can't say this for certain, but someone here on EBR said that Bosch has this communication system that their battery would only work on Bosch motor.

This applies to half-integrated battery packs, fully integrated battery packs, or any other proprietary or custom designed packs. Anything that you can't simply bolt-on to 2 standard water bottle holes.
Though, I do agree that at least for now, Reention Dorado (half-integrated) is pretty safe in terms of future-proofing, as they're very popular.

Bosch and Yamaha for example, I don't think they're attached on to 2 water bottle holes.
This is what I meant by less "universal" because you can't just go around and attach them on any bike.

Timpo you’re so darn naive. All forum educated with nothing for experience. I try but with you it’s useless. You’re a great help to many people. Those with awful Google skills. I applaud you for that! You’re a veritable search engine. Sadly there’s experiential substance. I should just give up

It wouldn't matter if the next generation battery has different battery cradle, as long as the new battery cradle is made to fit the 2 water bottle holder holes.

it makes a LOT of difference to the fellow that wants to move batteries between bikes without changing cradles. Like DOZENS of my customers over nearly a decade.

I can't say this for certain

exactly. Like so much of what you post. You post but don’t know. But post anyway.
now I do give up.