scrambler
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I have not looked recently, but I think Cake is using them on some of their bikes.
Are There Class 4 E-Bikes With Belt Drives?
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scrambler
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Ösa | CAKE
Light, quiet and clean. CAKE develops uncompromising high-performance electric motorbikes.
ridecake.com
Kalk | CAKE
Light, quiet and clean. CAKE develops uncompromising high-performance electric motorbikes.
ridecake.com
McCorby
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But their performance oriented off road only offerings use chains. Such as the Bukk.Ösa | CAKE
Light, quiet and clean. CAKE develops uncompromising high-performance electric motorbikes.Kalk | CAKE
Light, quiet and clean. CAKE develops uncompromising high-performance electric motorbikes.
J.R.
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His point of view isn't the rebuttal; you posting a third person's point of view as a response to my personal experience was a rebuttal. He didn't respond to my experience.
You did. And you want to argue about it without any personal experience. I really don't get it.
scrambler
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I guess I am not good at explaining the difference between presenting a different perspective and contradicting ....
Regarding "you want to argue about it without any personal experience. I really don't get it."
If we should not present perspectives from other people more qualified than we are, I think it would considerably limit the propagation of valuable information from all the people who have the proper qualification.
Sorry I offended you, I will rest my case now
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JRA
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Thing is there is no legal Class 4 designation other than it has become convenient due to the eBike Class laws and 4 does come after 3 so that fits nicely. However there are long standing laws regarding MoPeds, which Sur Ron's and those Cake deals represent to me. The thing that bothers me about them is that they don't have pedals and so I have no need. I guess as well the whole access issue but if they are recognized as MoPeds that alone legally excludes them from paths, sidewalks and some states even bike lanes I think?
The real kicker are the pesky DOT regulations that MoPeds have to abide by over the much less stringent CPSC regs. DOT approved rims/tires, full lighting, automatic transmission (let that sink in), a mirror and a horn. Certainly isn't the case with any of the above mentioned and will either be a matter of time if they become more widely accepted, and I would argue that there are a good many eBikes running around that could be classified as a MoPed. They would have to have a VIN number also in order to properly register them.
If I had a private stash of 500 acres of trails I could see having a couple in the barn to goof off on but my last experience with a motorcycle was that it was boring to ride and that invovlng pedaling along with the assist is just right.
The real kicker are the pesky DOT regulations that MoPeds have to abide by over the much less stringent CPSC regs. DOT approved rims/tires, full lighting, automatic transmission (let that sink in), a mirror and a horn. Certainly isn't the case with any of the above mentioned and will either be a matter of time if they become more widely accepted, and I would argue that there are a good many eBikes running around that could be classified as a MoPed. They would have to have a VIN number also in order to properly register them.
If I had a private stash of 500 acres of trails I could see having a couple in the barn to goof off on but my last experience with a motorcycle was that it was boring to ride and that invovlng pedaling along with the assist is just right.
scrambler
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I rode motorcycle all my life, and I gave them up when electric bikes came out.
Right now, my preference is for the Hybrids e-MTB / light motorcycle, that offer good pedal assist mode but more power than the regular e-bikes.
Bikes like the LMX 64 and 56 or the Boxxbike or the SEM Dahu. Bikes that you can ride as an e-MTB really using the pedaling as the main mode of operation but with more power than an e-MTB.
They are however in a murky legal zone. Because they are pedaling e-MTB, you can take them on trails without attracting too much attention, as long as you ride them appropriately and respectfully. But they are not legal there.
They can be registered as Moped or L1 in Europe which makes the use of their power legal on streets.
It is all a matter of preference, and there is a way to go to smooth out the legalities.
In the mean time ride with respect...
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JRA
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We are on the same page Scrambler it seems. For years an industry friend and I have kicked around the idea of a Pedal Assist Light Electric Motorcycle. I have my bike set up as close as I can get it to that and stay reasonably within bounds but it still is a 62lb bicycle. Doesn't bother me after years of on and off road moto time except under 1 mph.. For ripping around on logging roads like it does as well as handling slow tech single track and everything in between it will do for now.
It makes the most sense to me to go with a gearbox/motor such as starting to appear but even a bit larger? It has worked for ICE bikes for years. I know from my experience with just a 1500w motor that a bicycle type drive system is not sufficient. That SEM Darhu for example is way nice but seeing that derailleur based drive on there gives me the heeby jeebies but you have to give it to the Italians for takingsomething with a motor to the next level artistically. And yes I would even spec a belt. The gearbox could also be either manual or automatic to meet the MoPed regs..
It makes the most sense to me to go with a gearbox/motor such as starting to appear but even a bit larger? It has worked for ICE bikes for years. I know from my experience with just a 1500w motor that a bicycle type drive system is not sufficient. That SEM Darhu for example is way nice but seeing that derailleur based drive on there gives me the heeby jeebies but you have to give it to the Italians for takingsomething with a motor to the next level artistically. And yes I would even spec a belt. The gearbox could also be either manual or automatic to meet the MoPed regs..
scrambler
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JRA
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So many options but it is the unobtanium things that keep me up at night. Like a 4000w internal geared mid motor.That is why I retrofitted a Kindernay VII to my Boxxbike, and implemented Torque sensing pedal assist on it
But I agree a mid drive motor with integrated gears would be the way to go.
Valeo / Effigear new geared motor is the first step in that direction for lower power bikes
I haven't had much luck with IGH's over the years but admittedly I have never had a Kinderhay nor Rohloff type. Last attempt was a Di2 Alfine that lasted about 200 miles on my 1000w front hub drop bar bike and all I was feeding it was my input? I just put on a Archer electronic shift and early days yet but the crisp accurate shift points has me thinking that at least it will help the cogs and chain last longer?
msdisme
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Though I've not seen one in the wild, this has a belt option and looks like it may scratch you itch: https://wattwagons.com/products/hound
BMW has also had belt drive bikes for some time.
It's an interesting callout RE: the belt drive, and as someone that's gone across a country or two before, I don't disagree with the claim on belt drives not being ideal, but - on bicycles, I suppose it's relative. Motorcycle chains by comparison, are quite beefy and strong. I'd wager a typical gates belt that can fit on a bicycle isn't all that far off on strength vs other applications and 'might' be significantly more durable than typical bicycle chains.
Everything else said is true - more moving parts = more places for random stuff to get jammed into.
J.R.
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Reading through some past articles about belts and off road, I just read this on Cycle World. The short article is about Harley choosing a chain for their Pan America adventure touring bike.
Comparing final drives on The Motor Company’s There are good reasons to adopt belt drive: It requires no lubrication, lacks the sound of a roller chain, and cannot stretch because it doesn’t have a chain’s 100 or more joints to wear. So why back to chain on this new “adventure-touring” model?
Ready for whatever you can throw at it? Harley-Davidson has equipped the new Pan America with steel roller-chain final drive, not the usual rubber tooth belt found on the other motorcycles in its current model line.Harley-Davidson
I phoned Paul James, Harley-Davidson’s marketing channels manager, and asked him. When he called me back on the same day, he said the official answer is threefold:
- Pan America is an off-road application. The subtext is that in that environment, Foreign Object Damage (FOD) to a belt is always a possibility. A pebble getting between belt and sprocket can break belt fibers.
- A steel chain affords more durability in the worst conditions—think mud, sand, fording streams, etc.
- Repairing or replacing a chain is comparatively easy anywhere in the world. Chain is “made by the mile and sold by the foot” while a belt can’t be repaired and a replacement must be exact.
Honestly, If an ebike that I really wanted, just had to have, had either chain or belt it wouldn't stop me getting the bike. I just wouldn't go out of my way, or pay for belt drive. I'd also be a little ticked off if stones forced me to replace a pulley or belt. Chains are cheap and easy to find, available even at Walmart in a pinch.
Absolutely on all the reasons. #3 is critical if you're doing something 'remote' like Alaska to South/Central America - good luck on a replacement belt. Worst case on a chain is everyone packs some spare masters and a breaker or hacksaw/multitool, or even some strong wire for 'total limp mode' - not possible with belts.Reading through some past articles about belts and off road, I just read this on Cycle World. The short article is about Harley choosing a chain for their Pan America adventure touring bike.
View attachment 160249
Comparing final drives on The Motor Company’s There are good reasons to adopt belt drive: It requires no lubrication, lacks the sound of a roller chain, and cannot stretch because it doesn’t have a chain’s 100 or more joints to wear. So why back to chain on this new “adventure-touring” model?
Ready for whatever you can throw at it? Harley-Davidson has equipped the new Pan America with steel roller-chain final drive, not the usual rubber tooth belt found on the other motorcycles in its current model line.Harley-Davidson
I phoned Paul James, Harley-Davidson’s marketing channels manager, and asked him. When he called me back on the same day, he said the official answer is threefold:
-----------
- Pan America is an off-road application. The subtext is that in that environment, Foreign Object Damage (FOD) to a belt is always a possibility. A pebble getting between belt and sprocket can break belt fibers.
- A steel chain affords more durability in the worst conditions—think mud, sand, fording streams, etc.
- Repairing or replacing a chain is comparatively easy anywhere in the world. Chain is “made by the mile and sold by the foot” while a belt can’t be repaired and a replacement must be exact.
Honestly, If an ebike that I really wanted, just had to have, had either chain or belt it wouldn't stop me getting the bike. I just wouldn't go out of my way, or pay for belt drive. I'd also be a little ticked off if stones forced me to replace a pulley or belt. Chains are cheap and easy to find, available even at Walmart in a pinch.
Having said that, for a lot of/many ebike/eMTB use, it's probably still open for discussion and use in many cases (belt). Riding solo in the Baja or far from civilization - less so.
kevinmccune
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refer to class 4Belt drives are used on a lot of ebikes too, even full suspension ones
kevinmccune
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if you want an electric dirt bike get one, no disrespect these faster more powerful things are starting to put the whole segment under closer scrutiny. good luck peddling one of those fattire 100# monsters
I ended up buying a Rambo Krusader 2.0. I found it one sale at a retailer near me that is also an Rambo Certified Warranty Provider. Riding the Rambo fat tire e-bike, which can operate as front wheel drive, rear wheel drive or all wheel drive, is definitely a little bit different experience than my Gazelle Ultimate C380+.
Initially, I didn't think I would even use the throttle. However, I am finding that I do use it occasionally. For example, one of the roads near me is narrow and when motor vehicles start following me, because they can't pass, I will use the throttle to got out of that area sooner than I could pedaling.
Initially, I didn't think I would even use the throttle. However, I am finding that I do use it occasionally. For example, one of the roads near me is narrow and when motor vehicles start following me, because they can't pass, I will use the throttle to got out of that area sooner than I could pedaling.
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