An easy and expensive mistake: Vado Battery Related

[Stefan Mikes]

Since it's happening to a lot of other people, I would put most of the blame on the design. Unbelievable. I've seen a lot of poor engineering designs that leave me scratching my head.

How many cases of this type did you hear about? What "lot of other people"?

 

[coffeemaker]

If the user was able to short out the battery with a key, it's defective. The battery does not expose it's pack voltage unless 5v is applied to one of the smaller pins by the charger.
If anyone has a multimeter, measure the voltage at the two large pins. Whether or not the pack is on or off, it should read close to zero volts.

 

[Gionnirocket]

If the user was able to short out the battery with a key, it's defective. The battery does not expose it's pack voltage unless 5v is applied to one of the smaller pins by the charger.
If anyone has a multimeter, measure the voltage at the two large pins. Whether or not the pack is on or off, it should read close to zero volts.

You'd think... But this has happened to more than one person so it's not some random defect.

 

[coffeemaker]

You'd think... But this has happened to more than one person so it's not some random defect.

Go ahead and measure it. I measure zero on two of mine, on or off. It would be silly to expose the pack voltage without a charger connected. In the other thread where a staple shorted out the contacts out when a charger was plugged in, a resettable fuse would have prevented the pack from being bricked.

HELP - Specialized Vado/Como Battery motherboard replacement.

I have a low use Vado 5.0 , less than 1000 miles. Yesterday I went to charge it and a staple (the kind you use on paper) had become attached to the magnetic socket of the Rosenberger connector, and when I plugged it in there was a spark; then Battery would not take a charge. Battery turns on (3...

electricbikereview.com

My guess too is that a fuse is blown and should work again when replaced. You could send Dave a message or I can give it a shot at fixing it. I also have a spare 604Wh Vado battery if anyone's interested.

 

[EMGX]

If the user was able to short out the battery with a key, it's defective. The battery does not expose it's pack voltage unless 5v is applied to one of the smaller pins by the charger.
If anyone has a multimeter, measure the voltage at the two large pins. Whether or not the pack is on or off, it should read close to zero volts.

Maybe, maybe not.
My Yamaha battery has a data port that requires communication from the motor in able to allow enough current to flow to power the motor. The battery voltage does read across + to -, even though it won't power a motor without data packets from the motor.
BTW people have bricked their yamaha batteries by probing the data port and + with a multimeter. There is no serviceable internal fuse, it just burns components of the circuit board that are not fixable or replaceable, a $1000 lesson that at least a few have learned the hard way.

regarding the OP experience, regardless of the fact that he accidently caused the damage the design is extremely poor to have allowed this to occur so easily and inadvertantly in the first place, either with a misdirected key or a staple stuck to the port cover.

 

[dollarbin]

Quick follow-up post. I brought the battery into my local authorized Specialized retailer. Apparently they had just replaced another battery for another customer for the exact same issue. As expected, Specialized declined to cover the repair under warranty. The worst aspect is that it took over a month for the battery to be replaced--according to the bike store most of that time was spent waiting for the replacement to arrive from Specialized. The good news is that the battery wasn't $1000 as I feared! It was $999.99 (plus tax). I'm just happy to be back on the bike, I had a glorious trip into work this morning.

So remember all, keep your cover on your terminals and check for metallic FOD any time the charge port is exposed.

 

[vincent]

Happy you are back on the road and very sad it costs you so much

 

[kahn]

Quick follow-up post. I brought the battery into my local authorized Specialized retailer. Apparently they had just replaced another battery for another customer for the exact same issue. As expected, Specialized declined to cover the repair under warranty. The worst aspect is that it took over a month for the battery to be replaced--according to the bike store most of that time was spent waiting for the replacement to arrive from Specialized. The good news is that the battery wasn't $1000 as I feared! It was $999.99 (plus tax). I'm just happy to be back on the bike, I had a glorious trip into work this morning.

So remember all, keep your cover on your terminals and check for metallic FOD any time the charge port is exposed.

Glad you are back in the saddle after that costly battery accident. And nice to hear it was not $1,000!!!

 

[gpburdell]

Glad you could get a replacement, sorry it cost so (*&$( much.

This is so dumb on three counts.

The two poor design decisions I listed above and then the third poor operational/customer-relations decision in which SBC does not offer any avenue for getting an otherwise perfectly serviceable battery repaired. Even with ground shipping, cost of a new logic board, and time/overhead of a technician and logistics staff, such repairs would be far less expensive than a new battery. Not to mention if they're going to have a recycling service, why not also have a repair/refurbishment service in which old/worn-out batteries are refurbished and people bitten by the poor design decisions can get their battery repaired.

 

[d3drturner]

why are these batteries $1000? I can get the LGGBMH11865, which is what my como 3 has, for $5 each. There are 40. That's $200. A decent bms is $50. I can spot weld and solder it together in a couple hours. I'm sure the manufacturers can get the parts for less. I built a battery for my self-made spare ebike out of an electric lawnmower battery that had a bad bms. It was fun. Thinking about upgrading this como battery with the LG18650MJ1, because it's down to 410 wh after 266 cycles, and the MJ1 has a slightly higher capacity of 3.5 ah, compared to the 3.2 ah of the MH1; 410 wh just barely covers my 20 mile commute. Also thinking about cramming some 5 ah 21700s in there, but I'd have to design and 3d print the holders; pretty sure they'd fit though. Here's to thwarting planned obsolesence and the disposable economy.

 

[tomjasz]

It reads like you’re using 18650 AND? 21700 in the same pack?

 

[tomjasz]

There are 40

36v 10s4p?

 

[gpburdell]

why are these batteries $1000? I can get the LGGBMH11865, which is what my como 3 has, for $5 each. There are 40. That's $200. A decent bms is $50. I can spot weld and solder it together in a couple hours. I'm sure the manufacturers can get the parts for less.

Because sellers of differentiated non-commodity products with little/no opportunity for substitution set the prices based on what they believe they can get customers to pay, and manufacturing cost plays little to no part in such decisions*.

* manuf. cost tends only to have an impact if it's sufficiently high relative to consumer willingness-to-pay as to make the product unviable

 

[d3drturner]

Because sellers of differentiated non-commodity products with little/no opportunity for substitution set the prices based on what they believe they can get customers to pay, and manufacturing cost plays little to no part in such decisions*.

* manuf. cost tends only to have an impact if it's sufficiently high relative to consumer willingness-to-pay as to make the product unviable

Yes, it was more of a rhetorical question. The price is along the sales strategy of "might as well get a new bike because everything else is wearing out on it" when it actually isn't.

Yes, Tom, it is 10s4p and 36v. No, I would not mix types of batteries. Maybe I was unclear; by "Also thinking about" I meant I was looking at the feasability of fitting the 5ah 21700s that Samsung makes inside the case but I'd have to redesign the holders.

 

[newts]

Yesterday I was trying to insert my key into the battery lock on the bike (green arrow), and in my haste to get on the road I accidentally briefly put the key into the uncovered battery charging receptacle (red X). The metal key made a short across the two terminals and there was a pretty good spark, but no other visible damage. The battery was fully charged and I was able to ride my bike 16 miles home with 35% battery power remaining. When I got home, however, I plugged in my bike to recharge as usual and the battery did not start to recharge. The light on the charger stays green indicating that it is not charging the battery, either on or off the bike. I assume that when I shorted the connector, I have burned out some component of the charging controlling hardware in the battery.

View attachment 117647

After a phone call to my LBS and a little online reading, it seems like this is not an uncommon occurrence. Unfortunately person on the phone at my LBS did not think this was something they could repair other than selling me a $1,000 replacement battery. Does anyone have any experience fixing this kind of accident without replacing the whole battery? Is there a fuse or something in there that can be replaced? Or a company that will replace the failed board in the unit? Or should I just bring it into my bike mechanic and see if they can get a solution from Specialized to fix this?

Clearly I'm 100% responsible for this, but it also seems like a design flaw that a moment's inattention bricks a $1K component without any circuit protection.

Whether this is a cheap or expensive lesson for me personally, consider this a public service announcement to be vigilant about replacing the charging port cover as soon as the bike is unplugged.

I did this too. I like having the charger and the key on the left side (The Gazelle as them on the right hand side) but I did the same thing in the dark. I saw a spark and then noticed it wouldn't take a charge any more. I watched some youtube video taking the battery apart and it looked like there were non replaceable fuses you could replace to fix it. It is a really bad design to allow this to happen.

I took it to the LBS where I bought it and Specialized replaced the battery under warranty.

What was the final outcome? If you still have the damaged battery I might be interested in trying to fix it.

 

[newts]

really hope specialized can help you with this, bad design
i am 90% sure all my bikes have fuses to protect the battery

so sorry this happened

I think it did have a fuse to protect the batteries from shorting out. But once the fuse blew no more charging. For a few more cents they should have added a diode or some other protection circuit and avoided this problem.

 

[newts]

How is that a stupid design? Should the engineer expect people to pay zero attention and shove the key into a charging terminal that they ignored putting the cover over? I was an engineer, and there is no way that every single stupid thing a human can do can be anticipated and have a solution engineered for those acts.

As others noted above besides for a common user error of putting the key an inch over to the charging port things like a staple on the magnetic plug has also caused this problem. Since it bricks a $900 battery that is a lot of warranty claims or really pissed off customers that could easily have been avoided in the design.

 

[dollarbin]

I did this too. I like having the charger and the key on the left side (The Gazelle as them on the right hand side) but I did the same thing in the dark. I saw a spark and then noticed it wouldn't take a charge any more. I watched some youtube video taking the battery apart and it looked like there were non replaceable fuses you could replace to fix it. It is a really bad design to allow this to happen.

I took it to the LBS where I bought it and Specialized replaced the battery under warranty.

What was the final outcome? If you still have the damaged battery I might be interested in trying to fix it.

Hi newts,

I'm so sorry that you joined the group of us who learned this lesson the hard way--I sometime wonder if we should bump this thread occasionally to prevent others from making the same mistake. I guess the positive side is that you were able to get the battery replaced under warranty. I was not so lucky for the battery, but I did get a warranty motor replacement previously even though the bike was more than two years old when the motor gave out.

I was not offered the broken battery. My hope is that the usable components were repurposed, or at the very least the unit was disposed of in a responsible manner. I think it would be pretty useful for the community if someone with skills and knowledge could see if there's an easy fix for whatever small component is getting burned out on these batteries.

 

[Ike582]

Yep, same thing happened to me. I accidentally touched the charging port with the battery release key. Since then, my battery won't charge more than 93%, and if leave it plugged in the charge level drops a couple of percent each day.

 

[tomjasz]

Yes, it was more of a rhetorical question. The price is along the sales strategy of "might as well get a new bike because everything else is wearing out on it" when it actually isn't.

Yes, Tom, it is 10s4p and 36v. No, I would not mix types of batteries. Maybe I was unclear; by "Also thinking about" I meant I was looking at the feasability of fitting the 5ah 21700s that Samsung makes inside the case but I'd have to redesign the holders.

You’re not considering the associated costs. I agree $1000 is a burn but by the time you buy a welder, a case, nickel ribbon, tape, fish paper, a quality BMS, and more its not an inexpensive build.