Advice for someone who is bad at hills and has limited servicing options - budget under $4k

[CannotDoHills]

The things that we called "mountain bikes" when we were younger have evolved into full suspension beasts which have no creature comforts for riding around the city. A new category called "gravel bikes" has appeared in the space they left behind, and they are basically the mountain bikes of our youth. There is an emerging category for ebikes of full suspension mountain bikes with features like fenders, racks and lights added back in. You mention Powerfly. In that series the "equipped" models are the "SUV style".

That's really not big for an ebike to drag up the hill, especially a mid-drive. If you want to get scientific, look at the torque of the motor (it's always listed). Trek seems to use the same Bosch CX 85Nm motor even in lower skus, while Specialized ramps the torque with the trim level. Then look at the ratio of the front chainring to the biggest ring on the back. You mention an Allant 7s and an FS4. Same motor torque, but because the FS4 has a granny gear, it's got about 60% more torque at the back wheel. On the other hand, the Allant 7s has about 25% more speed at the top end if you're pedaling like crazy.

ah ok - will take a look into that!

I've not really ridden bikes for about 20 years until last week and it was quite depressing how unfit I have become. I used to be able to most hills fine back then but now after injuries and my fitness has gone (for now) i'm seriously struggling and it's just not fun. So I just need something for now that can help me get up hills without making me want to throw up or have to get off and walk the remainder of the hill - which is what I currently do now.

To be honest all I want to do is just get a bit fitter, cycle around town and basic roads and minor off-road - nothing major at first. I definitely don't want a road bike because of my back and I've never got on with them. I'm not going to be going crazy down some mountain trail (at least not for a long time!) either. I just need something to easily get me uphills without much too much effort and that I can get fixed locally if something goes wrong. Which seems to be Trek or maybe Specialized or Marin.

Powerfly FS 4 seems great but is maybe a bit overkill for what i will be using it for?
Allant+ 7s if it can get me uphill ok?
I've just seen the Vado 4.0 and seems quite nice might be good for what I want?

There's no specialized bikes in stock near me so might travel an hour away to try one. Trek is near me and in stock so might try those too.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

I've just seen the Vado 4.0 and seems quite nice might be good for what I want?

Yes. Vado 5.0 is even better for the hills (a stronger motor, wide range gearing and brakes just made for hills). If you can afford it.

 

[Ben J]

I test rode a Turbo Tero 3.0 and it has less hill climbing ability than the Turbo Vado 4.0 and it still drug my ample self up a steep hill.

One nice thing about the Specialized system is that it has very fine control over assist levels (you can configure each mode to whatever you want, and you can dial up and down in 10% increments at any time) which I think is a big deal if you are trying to build fitness by gradually backing off on assist. I think Bosch (which is what Trek uses) has some similar features, but I don't know as much about them. And at least at one point they were locked behind a license upgrade. An advantage to Trek/Bosch is that they put similar motors in all skus (basically speed or not, depending on sku, but all still with 85Nm torque) so you can go farther down the model line and still have the power to get up hills. Specialized ramps the torque with the trim level.

 

[CannotDoHills]

Yes. Vado 5.0 is even better for the hills (a stronger motor, wide range gearing and brakes just made for hills). If you can afford it.

I'm trying to talk myself into it!

 

[CannotDoHills]

I test rode a Turbo Tero 3.0 and it has less hill climbing ability than the Turbo Vado 4.0 and it still drug my ample self up a steep hill.

One nice thing about the Specialized system is that it has very fine control over assist levels (you can configure each mode to whatever you want, and you can dial up and down in 10% increments at any time) which I think is a big deal if you are trying to build fitness by gradually backing off on assist. I think Bosch (which is what Trek uses) has some similar features, but I don't know as much about them. And at least at one point they were locked behind a license upgrade. An advantage to Trek/Bosch is that they put similar motors in all skus (basically speed or not, depending on sku, but all still with 85Nm torque) so you can go farther down the model line and still have the power to get up hills. Specialized ramps the torque with the trim level.

Thanks - good to know!

 

[TrevorB]

I test rode a Turbo Tero 3.0 and it has less hill climbing ability than the Turbo Vado 4.0 and it still drug my ample self up a steep hill.

One nice thing about the Specialized system is that it has very fine control over assist levels (you can configure each mode to whatever you want, and you can dial up and down in 10% increments at any time) which I think is a big deal if you are trying to build fitness by gradually backing off on assist. I think Bosch (which is what Trek uses) has some similar features, but I don't know as much about them. And at least at one point they were locked behind a license upgrade. An advantage to Trek/Bosch is that they put similar motors in all skus (basically speed or not, depending on sku, but all still with 85Nm torque) so you can go farther down the model line and still have the power to get up hills. Specialized ramps the torque with the trim level.

The CX has two optional modes +Tour and +MTB. Tour varies power from eco-turbo, more effort you put in more power ramps up. +MTB works same expect its from Tour-Turbo. +MTB is brillant for given controlled power delivery when MTBing as Turbo can be to much on tight tracks.
These have to be configured by shop on cheaper displays eg Purion. The four levels are.
ECO
TOUR or +Tour
SPORT or +MTB
TURBO

Not tried +Tour as not available on my motor yet. Would seem like great way to extend range.

Other manufacturers offer similar power levels.

 

[Ben J]

Looks like the Bosch Flow app has added the ability to customize these in the Smart system. The information about that being an extra charge was probably from some old R&M review I saw, perhaps pre-Smart system.

 

[Stefan Mikes]

Not tried +Tour as not available on my motor yet. Would seem like great way to extend range.

If I read it correctly, the +Tour varies the power over the whole assistance range depending on the effort of the rider. My experience with a similar system called Giant AUTO tells me that the variable assistance mode makes the rider lose control over the assistance, leading to shortened not extended battery range (I could be wrong regarding the Bosch mode, of course).

Looks like the Bosch Flow app has added the ability to customize these in the Smart system.

It looks the Bosch Smart System is a giant leap forward in the e-bike electronics. If I ever wanted to buy a Bosch E-Bike, it had to be a Smart System ride.

 

[pxpaulx]

@CannotDoHills - as someone who has also had a fair number of ebikes at this point, and enjoyed riding a mountain bike in my younger years (45 this year, have been into ebikes for about 8 years now and had a riding gap of 15+ years), I'll contribute the following:

• If you want an emtb, get an emtb. They are fun, they are comfortable even on pavement, and in the future when you get the courage to hit those trails, you'll have what you need (I am in this boat right now...just got the courage up at the end of last season and now I am ITCHING to get on the trails - it was a blast, don't wait as long as I did!)
• Don't get caught up in the this or that - ANY of the mid-drive bikes from the big brands will be a blast
• Don't worry about range - a conservative estimate is 1 mile per 10wh (at my weight...see next bullet) - so for a 700wh bike, a 50 mile ride is absolutely doable!
• I've got 100lbs on you (still working on it!) - hills will NOT be a problem
• Don't bother with a gravel bike...they are road bikes with big tires that some people want to punish themselves with on trails (I kid...sort of...but I don't think a gravel bike would be a wise first ebike choice)

 

[CannotDoHills]

@CannotDoHills - as someone who has also had a fair number of ebikes at this point, and enjoyed riding a mountain bike in my younger years (45 this year, have been into ebikes for about 8 years now and had a riding gap of 15+ years), I'll contribute the following:

• If you want an emtb, get an emtb. They are fun, they are comfortable even on pavement, and in the future when you get the courage to hit those trails, you'll have what you need (I am in this boat right now...just got the courage up at the end of last season and now I am ITCHING to get on the trails - it was a blast, don't wait as long as I did!)
• Don't get caught up in the this or that - ANY of the mid-drive bikes from the big brands will be a blast
• Don't worry about range - a conservative estimate is 1 mile per 10wh (at my weight...see next bullet) - so for a 700wh bike, a 50 mile ride is absolutely doable!
• I've got 100lbs on you (still working on it!) - hills will NOT be a problem
• Don't bother with a gravel bike...they are road bikes with big tires that some people want to punish themselves with on trails (I kid...sort of...but I don't think a gravel bike would be a wise first ebike choice)

Thanks for the advice! I think my main problem now is I research way too much - I just need need to go get one!

 

[CannotDoHills]

So I went into Trek again today and the staff there were advising me to get the Allant+ instead of a powerfly for the type of riding I would be doing around there. They have a 7s in stock in my size so will take it out for a test ride next week. Just looking into the difference between the 7 and 7s. Again whichever one gets me up hills easier. They said if I'm just going on roads mainly and light trails and backroads then allant+ is better?

I might order in a Powerfly as well to just test the difference for myself as I still like the look of them and be able to go anywhere on them.

If I ever get a chance to go to the next town over then I will try the specialized bikes there.

 

[TrevorB]

28mph version with 9spd you will struggle on steeper hills especially offroad. Issue is gearing which is 15% higher than on most 20mph bikes. 46T vs 40T chainring. If you don't plan on riding everywhere at 28mph then simple chainring swap will give you better climbing options. Can still do short bursts of 28mph just spinning those legs lot faster.

I'd go with 28mph as you can't upgrade motor but you can change gearing. Down track you may decide to change to 10, 11spd which have lot wider gear range 11-46 compared to 9spd 11-36.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

28mph version with 9spd you will struggle on steeper hills especially offroad. Issue is gearing which is 15% higher than on most 20mph bikes. 46T vs 40T chainring. If you don't plan on riding everywhere at 28mph then simple chainring swap will give you better climbing options. Can still do short bursts of 28mph just spinning those legs lot faster.

I'd go with 28mph as you can't upgrade motor but you can change gearing. Down track you may decide to change to 10, 11spd which have lot wider gear range 11-46 compared to 9spd 11-36.

Agree, if hills are the main problem, gearing might well be part of the solution. Just depends on how much you want to pedal.

Have a rear hub motor rated at 500W in a place with lots of short, steep hills. Significantly improved uphill performance just by reducing my chainring from 42t to 38t while keeping the stock 9-speed 11-34t cassette. Result: Much more useful 31" to 95" gearing for all of $12 and 20 minutes of my time.

Note that this worked for my needs only because I nearly always ride at low assist, enjoy pedaling at my natural cadence, and don't mind going slow if that's what it takes. Might or might not work for the OP.

If you can't find just the right bike from a nearby dealer, keep this potential tweak in mind.

 

[CannotDoHills]

Agree, if hills are the main problem, gearing might well be part of the solution. Just depends on how much you want to pedal.

Have a rear hub motor rated at 500W in a place with lots of short, steep hills. Significantly improved uphill performance just by reducing my chainring from 42t to 38t while keeping the stock 9-speed 11-34t cassette. Result: Much more useful 31" to 95" gearing for all of $12 and 20 minutes of my time.

Note that this worked for my needs only because I nearly always ride at low assist, enjoy pedaling at my natural cadence, and don't mind going slow if that's what it takes. Might or might not work for the OP.

If you can't find just the right bike from a nearby dealer, keep this potential tweak in mind.

This sounds like a good idea!

 

[CannotDoHills]

28mph version with 9spd you will struggle on steeper hills especially offroad. Issue is gearing which is 15% higher than on most 20mph bikes. 46T vs 40T chainring. If you don't plan on riding everywhere at 28mph then simple chainring swap will give you better climbing options. Can still do short bursts of 28mph just spinning those legs lot faster.

I'd go with 28mph as you can't upgrade motor but you can change gearing. Down track you may decide to change to 10, 11spd which have lot wider gear range 11-46 compared to 9spd 11-36.

I was wondering if I get it that later it's worth upgrading the gearing and chainring to similar to the 9.9? I jst like the option of the front suspension on the 7.

Ok really need to go test it this week!

 

[Kriegs]

Hi All,

I have been reading through the forums but still not 100% sure what to do. I'm over 40 and just getting back into biking with some health issues. I rented out a Fuji absolute 1.7 from a local shop for a week and was absolutely useless at going up hills. I could only make mild hills - anything else and I was just dying. Probably due to fitness and not using gears properly and what not? I had to get off and walk I was so bad. By the end I was better but still nowhere near what I was like when I was younger. It was no fun at all on those hills

Anyway - I live in Blacksburg Virginia and it's a little bit hilly in places so I'm looking for an ebike to help me up the hills. Main point are:

• A ebike to get me up all road hills - that is the main and only thing I really need help with.
• Will mainly be on paved roads, back roads, gravel roads, grass, etc
• Most likely will not be on hardcore trails or mountain bike parks or things like that (at least for a long while anyway!)
• Do not want a road bike or a cruiser - would prefer a mountain bike or hybrid style as always had a mountain bike when I was younger
• 5'8 / 205lbs so probably need more torque in the motor to get me up the hill
• I don't have a vehicle that could transport the bike a long way to get it fixed if there was a problem with it later
• There doesn't seem to be anyway (at least from what I can find) that fixes ebikes near me (that I can get to without a vehicle). So I'm a bit worried about buying an ebike online (e.g. aventon, etc) and then not being able to get it fixed if there was a problem
• Blacksburg has a Trek shop and a shop called Bike Barn that does a few ebikes - I'm not 100% sure if they will fix same brand ebikes that weren't purchased through the store (I've asked them about this and waiting for their response) so I'm a bit limited to what I can buy
• Ideally something I can still pedal if the battery dies

Of the Trek bikes I was thinking about either:

• Allant+ 7s
• Powerfly 4
• Powerfly FS 4
• Powerfly 4 Gen 4

The Bike Barn Had:

• SAUSALITO ST E2
• EL Kahuna SUV

it says they also do Marin (bit too expensive) and Specialized. If I can purchase Specialized through them or they will build it/service Specialized then will definitely consider them too.

Any advice or links to other posts would be much appreciated!

I would look right now with the sale going on at Evelo as you can get the Omega or Atlas for $3500 delivered with an Enviolo hud and gates belt drive and that Bafang mid motor is a beast with 120nm torque to get you up any hill with ease

 

[TrevorB]

I was wondering if I get it that later it's worth upgrading the gearing and chainring to similar to the 9.9? I jst like the option of the front suspension on the 7.

Ok really need to go test it this week!

Gearing is easier and cheaper to upgrade than suspension. When chain and cassette come up for replacement in few 1000miles that is time to upgrade to 10 or 11spd. You will also need to replace chainring at which stage swap worn 40t for original unused 46t.

 

[Ben J]

Gearing is easier and cheaper to upgrade than suspension. When chain and cassette come up for replacement in few 1000miles that is time to upgrade to 10 or 11spd. You will also need to replace chainring at which stage swap worn 40t for original unused 46t.

I'm afraid I've lost track of what the main bike under consideration is, but: If you're talking about a full suspension bike, making a big change in the chainring can have other consequences you want to consider. If you look at the Powerfly FS series you can see how the lower pivot of the rear frame triangle is right where the chain leaves the top of the chainring. That maximizes the amount of pedal force that is turning the wheel vs moving the suspension. If you get a significantly larger chainring, it will change that geometry.

Also, if the chain crosses over the rear triangle (like it does on the Turbo Tero X) it might need a relief cut for the chain which won't line up if the chainring is much bigger.

And it might have a guide for the chain that you'd have to remove or modify.

For example, doing the math on the Tero X I just got, if I wanted to be able to hit 28MPH at a cadence of 75 in top gear, I'd need to switch from a 38T front to a 48T front (!) which is 40mm larger diameter, so the chain path would move up by 20mm. I just measured and the chain would definitely hit the rear triangle in the lower gears. Plus if you look down from above it's clear that the front chain guide is doing important work, so it would have to be redesigned to fit the new chainring. (from a straight gearing perspective it would probably be great. I haven't gone up a hill that needed a gear lower than 3rd yet)

 

[PedalUma]

That Marin has 650b tires that are smaller, meaning lower geared for climbing, than most modern mountain bikes or many gravel bikes. It has a chainring with 44 teeth and an 11-51 cassette. Pedaling at a cadence of 80 rpm the speed range is 25mph on the flats and 5.3mph for the steepest hills. That is a whapping 472% gearing range.

 

[CannotDoHills]

I'm afraid I've lost track of what the main bike under consideration is, but: If you're talking about a full suspension bike, making a big change in the chainring can have other consequences you want to consider. If you look at the Powerfly FS series you can see how the lower pivot of the rear frame triangle is right where the chain leaves the top of the chainring. That maximizes the amount of pedal force that is turning the wheel vs moving the suspension. If you get a significantly larger chainring, it will change that geometry.

Also, if the chain crosses over the rear triangle (like it does on the Turbo Tero X) it might need a relief cut for the chain which won't line up if the chainring is much bigger.

And it might have a guide for the chain that you'd have to remove or modify.

For example, doing the math on the Tero X I just got, if I wanted to be able to hit 28MPH at a cadence of 75 in top gear, I'd need to switch from a 38T front to a 48T front (!) which is 40mm larger diameter, so the chain path would move up by 20mm. I just measured and the chain would definitely hit the rear triangle in the lower gears. Plus if you look down from above it's clear that the front chain guide is doing important work, so it would have to be redesigned to fit the new chainring. (from a straight gearing perspective it would probably be great. I haven't gone up a hill that needed a gear lower than 3rd yet)

the time but the main bikes are still from trek at the moment as that's my LBS which sell and service ebikes):

Allant+ 7s
Allant+ 7
Powerfly FS4

I'm going to ask the other LBS if the can order any specialized bikes into test (as they are an authorized specialized dealer) or see if I can get to the next town a way away and if they have in stock, if so, will try:
Vado 4.0 (maybe 5.0)
Tero 4.0 EQ (maybe 5.0)

At the moment I'm thinking more about the Allant or Vado. I should hopefully try the Allant+ 7s this wednesday.