Admitted Faulty Product Design

[karmap]

Hey all. I posted here a few times about my CrossCurrent S and some of the issues I’ve had with it. I love the bike when it works but it has been very unreliable. Well after contacting juiced again for the issue that has persisted from the very start it seems like they admit that the design is faulty and they just aren’t going to do anything about it except try the same things that will result in the problem. Here is the last email I got about my issue of battery disconnect. Specifically the metal connectors melting and the battery power randomly cutting off my riding.

“Hey XXX,

The wide-format battery on older CCS can create a problem due to the frame space. With vibration, the same problem is going to be happening.
The best thing to do is to use some straps or some sort of velcro on the inside to avoid the vibration.
The bike is out of warranty, we took care of the labor as a courtesy. We can offer another replacement port install.
Let me know if you want to send it in.
“
How is using straps and Velcro on a $1,500 bike acceptable. I already use straps and it doesn’t even help.

This is a commuter bike. How am I suppose to use it when it might cut off half way through a 16 mile bike ride In traffic.

the stupid thing is that I wouldn’t have gotten the bigger battery if it was an issue. It’s not like there was a warning.A consumer shouldn’t have to guess If a product was designed to work with a companies own product.

i don’t know anything about consumer rights and protection for knowingly selling a faulty product but definitely going to look into what can be done legally beyond the warranty.

 

[tomjasz]

Sadly a $1500 bike is a budget build. I wish the weren't the case... High quality kits are $1500.

 

[tomjasz]

Mine was $2400...came missing the rack, which I eventually got, but never got the rear light. Didn't come with Marathon Plus. Did come with the wrong firmware though.

A shame really. While I like several of the direct sellers, these kinds of issues do happen. A reason I’ve never purchased a eBike from this sort of seller. I find that kit building was a better value. My first factory eBike will be from an LBS. But despite my negative view a majority of Juiced buyers seem happy. It’s a shame your experience wasn’t positive. I think they do well because buyers want to save money. But for a few it doesn’t pan out and buyers resent having to do thier own repairs and suffer through slow support. Helping customers daily I can tell you some do some pretty goofy things. They don’t have the skills patience and knowledge and make huge mistakes and want them covered by warranty. I’m in no way implying this is the case here. Just mentioning it because I know what can happen when customers have to put things together without a shops support.

I apologize for commenting. This is the last time I will comment on these direct purchases. Good luck going forward. Everyone deserves a fun ride!

 

[karmap]

I am fine doing my own repairs. I like to tinker...but this is a design issue that makes the bike unreliable and with use, unusable.

I have to think, especially in California where they are based, there is a law saying they cant knowingly distribute a broken product, slow roll warranties, and then say its out of warranty. There are enough people burned by Juiced to make case that they knew about it, let alone the email I received.

I understand it is a budget bike. I am fine replacing the battery sooner than expected because they degrade faster. I am fine replacing the chain, the fork, the wheels...whatever...that is what wears down. What is not ok is the product not working as advertised from the get go. Telling them its not working and I would like to return it if it isn't going to work. Them telling me that it just needs to wear in...and then not honoring their product.

Downright shameful business practice.

 

[Ebiker01]

I’ve been writing here many posts and saying do not buy Juiced, Stromers, Specialized (cracked frames), some of the Giants ..some Bulls(no support) and some of the Treks..

Only buy from a real store, dealer .

 

[FlatSix911]

I am fine doing my own repairs. I like to tinker...but this is a design issue that makes the bike unreliable and with use, unusable.

I have to think, especially in California where they are based, there is a law saying they cant knowingly distribute a broken product, slow roll warranties, and then say its out of warranty. There are enough people burned by Juiced to make case that they knew about it, let alone the email I received.

I understand it is a budget bike. I am fine replacing the battery sooner than expected because they degrade faster. I am fine replacing the chain, the fork, the wheels...whatever...that is what wears down. What is not ok is the product not working as advertised from the get go. Telling them its not working and I would like to return it if it isn't going to work. Them telling me that it just needs to wear in...and then not honoring their product.

Downright shameful business practice.

I never expected a 100% experience from the direct purchase ebike dealer, I knew I'd have to true the wheels, make adjustments, and I've done plenty of my own repairs. The problem is they strapped a 52v battery into a frame that was too small, shipped the bikes with the 48v firmware, and called it a day. They fixed it with the wider frames on new bikes, indicating they figured out it was a problem. But telling people who've owned a $2400 bike for 6-12 months to buy some velcro straps and figure it out is beyond the pale.

It all adds up to a sad commentary on Juiced Bikes.

Can you post some detailed photos of the battery and frame... perhaps we can use the collective wisdom of the EBR forum to engineer a solution.

 

[tomjasz]

In the kit world batteries come with rubber buffers to place between the base and frame. Some of us add addition rivnuts to add screws to the battery base attachment.

 

[CCSColorado]

Karmap I have the same issue as you know (but with the 48v 19.1ah wide format battery). Juiced's response was the same: the battery that they charged me a premium for was too big for the frame they sold it with.

The company has been good about repairing and replacing things, but their suggested fix to me was that I swap down to a 12.1ah battery that actually fits the frame. With a 20 mile each way commute that's not going to cut it for my needs, especially since I paid extra for the extended range battery in the first place.

I'll say that the straps are merely a stopgap measure. After my first battery repair, I used cable ties to tightly secure the battery to my frame. Nevertheless it failed anyway after about 5 months of 2-3x per week use.

The problem is all with the interface. If the connector could float independently from the battery and from the frame, I don't expect this would be an issue. Having these pieces rigidly attached to parts that are bound to move relative to each other is a design flaw.

I'm disappointed, to put it lightly, by the company's response to this matter. I have a newly-repaired battery and a controller to replace now. But unfortunately I know it's just a matter of time before the connectors fail once again.

 

[tomjasz]

Would someone take the time to post detailed pictures of the mounting? Maybe the brain trust here can help find a solution? There are a few builders with lots of experience here.

 

[PDXzap]

I believe Justin showed the battery and I believe this is the mount?

Receiver / Downtube Battery Lock Interface Set for Current Series / Narrow Format

Updated XT60 style internal connector. Original replacement part for the downtube battery interface. Some earlier e-bikes use the barrel-type discharge connector. Lost keys will require a new replacement interface. Product Details: Battery interface frame Mounted upper and lower parts with...

www.juicedbikes.com

 

[tomjasz]

I guess those of us that build eBikes expect some level of issues that require a fix. If I paid $2500 I'd be pissed. But a $1500 and the suggestion that using a velcro or other strap wouldn't make me to crazy. But then I have a different set of expectations from direct sales.

 

[karmap]

I guess those of us that build eBikes expect some level of issues that require a fix. If I paid $2500 I'd be pissed. But a $1500 and the suggestion that using a velcro or other strap wouldn't make me to crazy. But then I have a different set of expectations from direct sales.

Looking at my invoice I actually paid $1,899 but I don’t really think it makes that much of a difference. I don’t know why people think you should expect a broken product from a company because it’s a direct sale bike and that’s ok. batteries are not to be messed with.

 

[tomjasz]

batteries are not to be messed with.

They really aren't so scary if the seller built a proper pack. But I do get the frustrations. So far the fires I've seen and read about were with budget China direct packs and homebuilt without proper safeguards and cheap BMS.

 

[sl_duck]

I'd smear the contacts with a bit of dielectric grease. Less friction when inserting the connector, so maybe the barrel won't get pushed back, and might help if oxidation on the contacts is increasing the resistance and causing enough heat to deform the housing (you mentioned the contacts had melted). Might even help dissipate some of the heat. Do the pins show carbon deposits or pitting from sparking? The dielectric will help with that too.

 

[tomjasz]

I'd smear the contacts with a bit of dielectric grease.

A better choice for electronics and all connections is ACF50 or Boeshield. Modern day dielectric, used on avionics! I've seen a lot of battery to base failure when not protected with ACF50 or dielectric. I'll never understand why we aren't told about that maintenance issue.

 

[hurricane56]

A big problem for me was the pins getting pushed in. Personally I wouldn't mess with the black and red wires of a lithium ion bomb, so I had to send it back to Juiced for repair. I've loosened the rings on both sides now so the connectors can float a little, rather than being rigid against a moving part, so we'll see if that helps.

My bike's battery power connector also looked like this picture. The issue with Juiced Bikes is they flatly refused to supply me with the newer socket that doesn't have the defective recessed contacts. In order to fix this problem I did the following:

1. Opened up the top cap of the battery. The plastic piece with the power button.
2. Unsoldered the main discharge wires to remove the discharge port with the contacts.
3. Used a soldering iron to heat each pin enough to soften the surrounding plastic.
4. While the pins are still hot, push the pins downward onto a flat surface to bring them flush with the receptacle.
5. Solder battery discharge wires back to discharge port and reassemble.

The other contributing factor is the sloppy manufacturing tolerances of some of the 48v and 52v batteries. I've documented this in another forum thread, but basically the lock pin hole in the battery is oversized causing the disconnects. When you also factor in some of the earlier frames that didn't support the entire side of the battery, the cause of the issue becomes very clear.

I know of four other people that have later build CCX and HF1100 bikes with all of these problems remedied. They do not have any disconnect errors.

 

[tomjasz]

And they were forced to make a repair. Before that it was velcro straps all the way.

I just read the FAQ,

"Do not use grease or any other substance on the battery discharge port. If you have connection issues, contact our support team."

That's just ridiculous!!! BAD information! ACF50, Boeshield, and dielectric are extremely helpful. WOW just WOW!

The more I read the more I'm changing my view.

 

[hurricane56]

I emailed the support a link to this article:

Battery Discharge Port Socket / Pins pushed in

Attention: Do not try to fix this issue by yourself, the battery has live connections, and disassembling or adding pieces to the pins will result in damage. Contact our support team for the next st...

support.juicedbikes.com

And they were forced to make a repair. Before that it was velcro straps all the way.

Yeah, they wanted to charge me for round trip shipping plus a diagnostic fee to look at my battery. It is out of warranty, however, since this is clearly a manufacturing defect, they should be treating this like a vehicle recall and perform good will repairs or replacement. After I declined to pay them I asked multiple times for spare parts and they also declined that request for the power receptacle. The thing that’s a disappointment about their service is they are clearly being as stingy as possible with after sales support. They market their bikes, especially commuter bikes as car replacements. I and many others depend on the bike to work reliably every day and they can’t seem to understand that every day counts when the bike is out of service or unreliable.

I realize that this type of repair is not recommended by Juiced Bike and I can’t advocate anyone perform this repair, but at the end of the day I took the risk and used my engineering background to fix the issue that Juiced Bike refused to do.

 

[tomjasz]

I realize that this type of repair is not recommended by Juiced Bike and I can’t advocate anyone perform this repair, but at the end of the day I took the risk and used my engineering background to fix the issue that Juiced Bike refused to do

Therein lies the biggest problem with these brands, their support model, and users expectations. If cars were marketed like this the manufacturer would soon be out of business.

You’re the perfect customer. Willing and able to affect your own repair. Maybe we’ll see EBike clubs form like the RC world. Get together and have repair clinics.

Someone with your skills might be happier building around your favorite bike.

I wonder what the problem rate actually is. Forums do tend to magnify issues.

I’m not dissing Juiced, but questioning the entire business model and how it addresses support. Kit builders know we’re in for an adventure.

 

[Fildil]

My bike's battery power connector also looked like this picture. The issue with Juiced Bikes is they flatly refused to supply me with the newer socket that doesn't have the defective recessed contacts. In order to fix this problem I did the following:

1. Opened up the top cap of the battery. The plastic piece with the power button.
2. Unsoldered the main discharge wires to remove the discharge port with the contacts.
3. Used a soldering iron to heat each pin enough to soften the surrounding plastic.
4. While the pins are still hot, push the pins downward onto a flat surface to bring them flush with the receptacle.
5. Solder battery discharge wires back to discharge port and reassemble.

The other contributing factor is the sloppy manufacturing tolerances of some of the 48v and 52v batteries. I've documented this in another forum thread, but basically the lock pin hole in the battery is oversized causing the disconnects. When you also factor in some of the earlier frames that didn't support the entire side of the battery, the cause of the issue becomes very clear.

I know of four other people that have later build CCX and HF1100 bikes with all of these problems remedied. They do not have any disconnect errors.

Does anyone know exactly what is different about the CCX battery holder? I assume that new batteries would be the same as the batteries sold with the CCX.