A flood of new ebikes coming from Japan ?

[Deleted member 4210]

There are a number of new entities beginning exports of ebikes from Japan to the US. Yamaha, Panasonic, BESV, and more firms have ebikes that have been operating for years that we have never seen. If Yamaha or Panasonic corporate doesn't bring the models directly, it seems other channels will.

Perhaps the China tariffs have spurred the new efforts, but as the demand for ebikes keeps growing significantly, there no doubt will be a lot of offerings. Whether these will be priced better, or better quality, or just the same old thing is hard to say.

Additionally, expect to see offerings that are much higher speed (likely illegal except for riding on private property) and blur the lines between what's a 'bike' and what used to be 'moped' or 'motorcycle.'

It's been a great year with lots of new models, some new brands, but also a year where many new models were announced last fall, but never made it to market, and some models that never will. Firms that do that, are not very prudent. Eventually it will catch up to them.

Exciting environment in the world of ebikes.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

Hoping to see a Yamaha branded dual suspension enduro mtb as well as a fat bike mtb, hard tail or preferably, dual suspen
sion released. Be nice to see some competition for Haibike or Bulls in the upper tier mtb ebikes.

Paint up the fatties along the lines of the Yamaha TW200 motorcycle or their XT series to keep that brand recognition alive.

Look to integrating that 745wh external battery into their lineup as well. Old school, reliable and more convenient for the customer to bring in overnight to recharge and store in the warmth of home....

Appreciate the updates, Mike. Coming up on 9000 trouble free Yamaha PW miles on my Haibike Full FatSix; I am a Yamaha fan through and through.

 

[Mystery]

Japan is known for making reliable vehicles. And in general very good technology.

 

[Mystery]

I thought BESV was Taiwanese?

No... what electronics do they make?

 

[Slow Rider]

No... what electronics do they make?

BESV headquarters is in Taiwan. As far as what electronics? Ebikes... http://www.besv.com/

 

[Mystery]

BESV headquarters is in Taiwan. As far as what electronics? Ebikes... http://www.besv.com/

They look nice I like the PSF1

 

[iskjone]

I think out of a flood on new Japanese eBikes at least a couple of raindrops would be identified by name. (Yamaha and Panasonic already well known players in the US.) Who? What? When? Daydreaming?

 

[Dewey]

Hoping Yamaha Motor Corp USA will tell the Power Assist Bicycles division to get on with it and import the JDM Yamaha PAS line of step-through's as well as the current models from the YPJ line.

Does anyone have an update from Panasonic USA or Kent International on the relaunched 'Univega' brand? There was an announcement in January talking about assembly in S Carolina and a line of ebikes with Panasonic hub and mid-drive motors, but nothing since. Once the tech support infrastructure is in place it ought to make it easier for Panasonic USA to consider bringing over their JDM models, or for the EU brands using Panasonic motors to distribute in the US.

Is anyone importing Miyata ebikes with Shimano Steps motors?

 

[Deleted member 4210]

Hoping Yamaha Motor Corp USA will tell the Power Assist Bicycles division to get on with it and import the JDM Yamaha PAS line of step-through's as well as the current models from the YPJ line.

Does anyone have an update from Panasonic USA or Kent International on the relaunched 'Univega' brand? There was an announcement in January talking about assembly in S Carolina and a line of ebikes with Panasonic hub and mid-drive motors, but nothing since. Once the tech support infrastructure is in place it ought to make it easier for Panasonic USA to consider bringing over their JDM models, or for the EU brands using Panasonic motors to distribute in the US.

Is anyone importing Miyata ebikes with Shimano Steps motors?

Re: your note about Panasonic, it's not uncommon these announcements are made 1 to 2 years before product hits the street. For example, you won't see the new Yamaha motors announced in July until 2021.

 

[Dewey]

I don't know if there's much US market for Japanese ebikes...Japanese ebikes are reliable and affordable...looking at RadWagon's success, I think there's a market for affordable and reliable mamachari.

I agree, if they can keep the price down to under $2,000 the step-through’s would sell well to parents and kids cycling to school and running errands, from what I read on social media lots are looking for more affordable alternatives to a $4,000 cargo ebike but with the same utility and low CoG plus shop support. The more expensive eMTB’s, gravel ebikes, etc could compete if they follow Yamaha’s Power Assist Bicycles and offer a generous motorcycle-like transferable warranty. To generate buzz around the mama-chari concept they could work with family cycleries across the US in different markets like BikeShopGirl (CO), Bicycle Belle(MA), and G&O(WA), and invite members of local family biking groups with a social media presence to borrow a loaner ebike for a month, or attend local show-and-tell events like the one last weekend in Washington DC. I did that last summer with Gazelle to produce content for their Gazelle Stories reviews, I’d be happy to do it again.

 

[Mike TowpathTraveler]

I'm not feeling that last child carrier seat atop the handlebar.....not in the litigious US society we are in today. No way.

This is where those German bike carrier designs, like the R&M Load 60 and 75 have it all over the Japanese design; with the human cargo just inches off the ground, instead of 3 feet up in the air.

 

[Dewey]

Whether these will be priced better, or better quality, or just the same old thing is hard to say.

The original TPP agreement would have eliminated tariffs between Japan and the US on complete ebikes, motors, lithium-ion batteries, and controller circuit boards. Would have meant lower prices both for Yamaha ebikes and the upcoming Univega ebikes from the Kent International/Panasonic partnership to assemble ebikes in the US with Japanese parts. Whether the replacement bilateral US-Japan trade deal is as good remains to be seen as the terms are still being negotiated. Might be Kent International is awaiting the outcome before committing to production.

 

[Dewey]

I'm pretty sure they can keep the price down to $1,000 give or take.

The reason why I say this is that, when you look at Japanese products, like TVs, video games, motorcycles, cars, and even ebikes, the prices didn't increase much compare to Japanese market.
The current Yamaha US ebikes for example, you won't save much money if you bought them in Japan.

You would think the prices will increase substantially after import duties, shipping and all that, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Looking at the JDM Yamaha YPJ-TC that retails for 300,000 yen before tax which is $2,775, the MSRP on the equivalent US market Yamaha Cross Connect model before tax is $2,999 which is about an 8% markup and that's with freight & existing tariffs.

A typical JDM mama-chari model such as the Yamaha PAS Kiss retails for about 155,000 yen, maybe $1,500 with both fore and aft child seat options, so potentially could be sold for $1,620 at 8% markup plus sales tax, freight, and any tariffs would still be well under $2,000 and a real competitor for other budget longtails like RadWagon, Eunorau Cargo, and Blix Packa.

 

[Dewey]

I'm not feeling that last child carrier seat atop the handlebar.....not in the litigious US society we are in today. No way.

This is where those German bike carrier designs, like the R&M Load 60 and 75 have it all over the Japanese design; with the human cargo just inches off the ground, instead of 3 feet up in the air.

I agree a box bike is better but R&M Load retails for $8,000 which is out of reach of most. Also the Japanese front bucket seats offer more protection than bolt-on front seat/peg options like the Tyke Toter, and the bikes have useful features like a kickstand that when deployed also activates a steering lock so the bike remains steady when loading. Quality control is a big selling point, and Japanese manufactured ebikes must comply with the JIS D 9115 standard.

Check out this video from Yamaha:

 

[Slow Rider]

yeah I agree, R&M is way too expensive.
The high price will definitely deter people from leaving their cars and switching to ebikes.

Even Taiwanese brands like Tern, Giant, Merida, BESV, etc... are still very expensive.

That's why Japanese ebikes like Bridgestone, Yamaha, Suzuki, Panasonic, etc.. might able to serve the purpose.
As we know Japanese ebikes are affordable and dependable. However, not exactly recreational items like many US customers are looking for.
They need to un-restrict Japanese 15mph speed limit though.

Timpo agree with you that mamachari's don't really fit the U.S. market right now. I rode a couple of new Yamaha's earlier this year in Japan, and thought the bikes were great to ride and the PAS very refined. But I think if Yamaha/Panasonic/Bridgestone were to bring these bikes over to the US they would have some challenges in design/marketability, a few listed below.

• As Timpo mentioned, bump the speed limit from 15mph to 20mph
• Upgrade to disc brakes if not for safety for a pure marketability standpoint (how many big ebikes don't have disc brakes?)
• Probably need an upgrade to the wheels and tires to handle 20mph.
• A hard sell would be that the batteries on a lot of the mamachari's are 25.5 volts, and the power output would be "entry level".
• Battery size on a lot of the bikes including the Yamaha PAS Kiss are 300wh or less, with the more expensive models having around 400wh. Takes a lot less juice at 15mph than 20mph. 400wh seems like it's the bare minimum for a bike here in the US, so a smaller battery than that would probably be a difficult sell.
• What about the internal 3 speed hubs, would they be able to withstand the additional stress and from a marketing standpoint are they considered a plus or minus compared to a 7 speed rear derailleur?

 

[Dewey]

Whether the replacement bilateral US-Japan trade deal is as good remains to be seen as the terms are still being negotiated.

Today's announcement of an initial trade agreement mentions reducing or eliminating tariffs on bicycles and parts imported from Japan to the US, still awaiting further detail about exactly what this covers.

 

[Dewey]

But the question is, are Japanese ebike manufactures (Bridgestone, Suzuki, Yamaha, Panasonic, etc) even interested in the US market?

I have a feeling they probably won't bring mamachiaris since they probably think Americans are only interested in eMTBs and e-roadbikes.

I forget how many ebikes are sold in the US, it's not as many as the EU, but Shimano and Yamaha sell lots of mid-drive systems, that's why Panasonic made their deal with Kent/Univega to establish an initial US customer order to make it worth their while to establish the supply chain/technical support. Given the other comments about the number of changes needed to upgrade JDM mama-chari's to meet US market demands, I don't understand retail dynamics but I expect there's more work to be done before they can trial models with US dealers to establish what the customer wants and is prepared to pay, it's clear this can take at least one full bicycle sales season for example Gazelle recently revised US pricing on their CityZen Bosch powered models now a grand less than their initial msrp a year ago.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

But the question is, are Japanese ebike manufactures (Bridgestone, Suzuki, Yamaha, Panasonic, etc) even interested in the US market?

I have a feeling they probably won't bring mamachiaris since they probably think Americans are only interested in eMTBs and e-roadbikes.

Yamaha is already here, with more than 60 dealers signed up last year. Panasonic has announced its product but their distribution model for the US remains to be seen. Volumes here in the US are tiny compared to other markets worldwide, where ebikes and bikes are relied upon much more for daily commuting and part of a country's infrastructure. That said, as we all know, firms like Yamaha and Panasonic completely dwarf every bike or ebike company in the world, being in many consumer product lines. They are both conservative and play the long game. Any business from ebikes is very miniscule for such large companies, but these are firms that once they decide an entry point, they typically remain very committed and focus on quality and reliability, and strong and deep support. I've seen it first-hand with Yamahas operations, and they are light years ahead of everyone else in how they are set up for dealers.

They are very methodical, and it's years of lessons learned supporting high volume consumer products, that both Yamaha have, and Panasonic have across many different lines, that ultimately will give them staying power along with their financial heft. Meanwhile many different types of marketing firms and distribution entities will be working to bring all sorts of EV technologies and products from Japan too. These are channels that Yamaha or Panasonic or others would not have to spend much money on, to allow the channels to create more demand for them and other large Japanese firms that may not be known for bikes or ebikes either. Its very expensive for a firm as big as Yamaha to develop their own direct to dealer model. So it will be interesting to see what the next few years bring. It's invigorating to see such big firms take an interest in the US ebike market so soon, given such low volumes still versus other markets. Positive for the consumer. You didn't see this (big name consumer brands) back in 1999 when Lee Iacoca was touting 'ebikes.' 20 years later, ebikes must be finally coming into their own, and are here to stay this go around.

 

[Deleted member 4210]

I forget how many ebikes are sold in the US, it's not as many as the EU, but Shimano and Yamaha sell lots of mid-drive systems, that's why Panasonic made their deal with Kent/Univega to establish an initial US customer order to make it worth their while to establish the supply chain/technical support. Given the other comments about the number of changes needed to upgrade JDM mama-chari's to meet US market demands, I don't understand retail dynamics but I expect there's more work to be done before they can trial models with US dealers to establish what the customer wants and is prepared to pay, it's clear this can take at least one full bicycle sales season for example Gazelle recently revised US pricing on their CityZen Bosch powered models now a grand less than their initial msrp a year ago.

It's between 200,000 and 400,000 units, depending on what your definition of an ebike is, and whether you are counting what is actually sold to the final consumer, vs what is sold to a dealer and sits in inventory.

 

[iskjone]

Wow, between 200-400K. Can't fathom what that number represents. If including hub driven eBikes I'm guessing that number way too low.