A feature possibly overlooked on the new Limited model from Ride 1 Up

[wings02]

After a great amount of research before ordering an E-Bike, I went with the new Limited model from Ride 1 Up. One feature which really got my attention, but probably overlooked by some, was the type of sensor they included in this model. They incorporated a torque sensor vs a rotational sensor. These devises are found by the pedal crank and function to give input to the motor as to how much to assist the rider based on feedback it gets from the force the rider is applying while pedaling. My research pointed out that a torque sensor is more accurate in sensing crank pressure instead of just rotational crank speed, thus providing the rider with a more natural feel of motor assistance. Please note, I have only ridden bikes with rotational sensors, so I cannot say first hand that a torque sensor provides a better riding experience. I think it should be noted that a torque sensor is usually found on more expensive bikes. If my research is correct, Kudos to Ride 1 Up for incorporating this feature in their new model E-Bike that is under $2,000. If anyone has input in this feature, and the accuracy of my description, please comment.

 

[Asher]

A torque sensor is nice, but is it $200 nice?

I liked that the LTD has a more powerful motor, but it lacks the rack and fenders of the 700 model while costing $300 more. (It also has a better suspension but I prefer rigid forks anyway)

The LTD is fine as part of a brand portfolio of ebikes, but I don't see it as a mainstay of the lineup because the value isn't as great and I'm skeptical that torque sensors are really worth it for most mainstream riders, like Timpo.

Especially now when the market is in its infancy, first time customers are more price sensitive because they aren't sure how much they'll use an ebike, and they aren't ardent cyclists either. Some may later graduate to torque sensors, some may be happy without ever having it. Plus I've heard torque sensors require a lot of finesse to implement, so it's another barrier to more ebike models coming into production.

 

[rich c]

I'd pay $200 more for a torque sensor, it provides the natural cycling feel that I prefer. But not sold on the Ride 1 Up as a brand yet.

 

[ruffruff]

I'd pay $200 more for a torque sensor, it provides the natural cycling feel that I prefer. But not sold on the Ride 1 Up as a brand yet.

Ditto on torque sensor.
I have two bikes, one cadence on torque. Prefer Torque sensor 100% over cadence.

 

[Browneye]

You'll love the bike. Without a torque-sensor they tend to behave like an on/off switch.

The newest yamaha-drive bikes have SIX sensors. It even senses when you're going up and down a hill and adjusts accordingly. And an 'auto mode' that provides assist 'as needed' for optimum performance and range.
Lots of new technology in the ebike world.

 

[wings02]

Interesting thought Deleted Member 4210! Would you go into more detail. Are you basing the repair on difficulty and special tools needed for the repair or the actual repair itself, once you get to the sensor? Thanks for your input

 

[Cyklefanatic]

After a great amount of research before ordering an E-Bike, I went with the new Limited model from Ride 1 Up. One feature which really got my attention, but probably overlooked by some, was the type of sensor they included in this model. They incorporated a torque sensor vs a rotational sensor. These devises are found by the pedal crank and function to give input to the motor as to how much to assist the rider based on feedback it gets from the force the rider is applying while pedaling. My research pointed out that a torque sensor is more accurate in sensing crank pressure instead of just rotational crank speed, thus providing the rider with a more natural feel of motor assistance. Please note, I have only ridden bikes with rotational sensors, so I cannot say first hand that a torque sensor provides a better riding experience. I think it should be noted that a torque sensor is usually found on more expensive bikes. If my research is correct, Kudos to Ride 1 Up for incorporating this feature in their new model E-Bike that is under $2,000. If anyone has input in this feature, and the accuracy of my description, please comment.

I have 2 bikes one with only cadence sensing and with a torque sensor. The torque is mandatory in all future bikes. It feels more natural and makes less mistakes than a cadence sensor on its own.

 

[Bigal1463]

Unfortunately we who have cadence sensors are stuck with them. You’re 100% correct. Torque Is the way to go, but I believe it adds to the cost. Let me ask a question? Do you know if it’s possible to convert to torque, and how costly would it be? I overcome this problem by putting my PAS to 0 and just pedal without power when I’m approaching people and other bikes. It is an inconvenience, but I don’t want to be disrespectful of others.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

A torque sensor is nice, but is it $200 nice?

I liked that the LTD has a more powerful motor, but it lacks the rack and fenders of the 700 model while costing $300 more. (It also has a better suspension but I prefer rigid forks anyway)

The LTD is fine as part of a brand portfolio of ebikes, but I don't see it as a mainstay of the lineup because the value isn't as great and I'm skeptical that torque sensors are really worth it for most mainstream riders, like Timpo.

Especially now when the market is in its infancy, first time customers are more price sensitive because they aren't sure how much they'll use an ebike, and they aren't ardent cyclists either. Some may later graduate to torque sensors, some may be happy without ever having it. Plus I've heard torque sensors require a lot of finesse to implement, so it's another barrier to more ebike models coming into production.

Ltd owner here and I thought long and hard, six months before I pulled the trigger.
My Ltd's fenders cost me $20. Both my high quality Front (85lb limit) & Rear (120lb limit ) racks $80ish. That's for both. The 700 only comes with a 60lb limit bicycle style rear and the attachments look alien (chrome not matching paint).
Even on paper the Ltd is a fabulous value compared to the lesser 700.
Not sure you were implying otherwise but the 700 actually does have a hydraulic fork. Core 5 has a rigid fork for a bunch less cash and it's the modern concept frame that's even lighter than the Ltd's. Why not a C 5?
The Ltd's fork is a couple steps up from 700's - not a FOX or anything. YouTube vids on the Ltd's fork say it's the best performance fork for the $$$. I have no experience so I can't compare it (unlike some that have no experience with an Ltd, but keep comparing it with lesser machines), but I like it for jumping curbs. Next step up fork for Ltd starts in the $500 range. Next step up for 700's starts in the $200 range.
Lighting? I spent $100 on an 11hr @ 20,000 Lumen detachable/ rechargable18650 LED, front (great as a flashlight as well) and a (also rechargable) BT controlled, rear Laser light with turn signals, etc and 10' long laser stripes on the pavement about 4' out, each side of the machine (See photo). Looks sick and keeps the cars back at night. That too is the latest and the greatest.
700 owner spent money on limited, older lighting. Upgrading means that money was wasted - while I went straight to the top.
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Then there's the depreciation factors. 700, which weighs 19% more has 40% less torque (60nm vs Ltd's 100nm). A very BIG deal. Bikes are getting more powerful. Guess will be obsolete first?
Aesthetics: The 700 looks like a million other cheap bikes (a shame cuz it's not. R1U makes a great quality product), but the Ltd is downright striking and constantly garners comments like "I've never even seen as bike like that".
Not just me: I've probably sent 50 people to R1U. People love this bike's looks.
Hardware and parts: The Ltd's Derailer, Cassette and fittings are also higher grade than the 700's. In fact every time I compare the two I find more differences; the Ltd even has better disk brakes (180mm); the 700's now somewhat dated frame also has a bottom release battery, an obsolete pain to remove deal-breaker that has been rectified/ eliminated on the current evolution of mainstream, rear-drive trend setters.
My understanding of R1Us lineage is these are two entirely different concepts and the Ltd, being the more modern IS the "mainstay lineup".
Unless there's a problem with the much increased power, the Ltd IS the next generation, not the ready to retire 700.
.
For me, in the real hands-on world $300 more for the Ltd was a bargain.
I don't have experience riding machines with other type sensors, so I can't compare, but I'm not a huge fan of the "either accelerating or slowing" characteristic throttle feel. I replaced with twist type and it's a bit better. Still don't have my PAS settings right. Bike is blazing fast.
30mph no problem.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

After a great amount of research before ordering an E-Bike, I went with the new Limited model from Ride 1 Up. One feature which really got my attention, but probably overlooked by some, was the type of sensor they included in this model. They incorporated a torque sensor vs a rotational sensor. These devises are found by the pedal crank and function to give input to the motor as to how much to assist the rider based on feedback it gets from the force the rider is applying while pedaling. My research pointed out that a torque sensor is more accurate in sensing crank pressure instead of just rotational crank speed, thus providing the rider with a more natural feel of motor assistance. Please note, I have only ridden bikes with rotational sensors, so I cannot say first hand that a torque sensor provides a better riding experience. I think it should be noted that a torque sensor is usually found on more expensive bikes. If my research is correct, Kudos to Ride 1 Up for incorporating this feature in their new model E-Bike that is under $2,000. If anyone has input in this feature, and the accuracy of my description, please comment.

Yes. Thanks You. Explains a lot. Another reason R1U 700 owner's recommendations (being based on obsolete technology) fail with my Ltd's , (based on state-of-the-art) technology.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

It sounded good, but the new model Ltd has dumped the TS and gone cadence sensor.

 

[AHicks]

Then there's the depreciation factors. 700, which weighs 19% more has 40% less torque (60nm vs Ltd's 100nm). A very BIG deal. Bikes are getting more powerful. Guess will be obsolete first?

Great bunch of notes! I just wanted to add that after having had numerous 1000w+ bikes, I took a step backward on my latest, as this bike is going to see the hills of any significance only rarely. The new bike has a 500w Bafang geared hub (honestly rated at 55nm), which I was pleasantly surprised to find VERY capable of providing some pretty sporty performance!

Point being, it's given me a new perspective. Now I think there may be many that don't NEED anything bigger. Before spending time with the 500 I would have never thought that was possible and would have agreed with your bigger is better statement here 100%.

For those so inclined, there's also the potential of feeding a bunch of power to the 500 for a few seconds to let it show you how a 750 performs for the rare occasion you need that much power.

 

[Fast n' Furious]

That "... there may be many that don't NEED anything bigger", will not change innovation (more - powerful/ lighter/ stronger/ range, features) sales factors or planned obsolescence.
Can you honestly say you would buy your 500, or a machine that gets to the same speeds 20% faster and has 15% greater efficiency if they were the same price?
Yours is a 5 year old design. The other is new, quieter and looks all the current rage, made of modern materials like kevlar reinforced directional carbon fiber, has better state of the art brakes, lighter, etc. etc. Remember: Once the tooling is up, the cost becomes equal.
This begs the question: Who will buy these now older, lesser featured machines?
Given the above factors as a new buyer, which will they buy?
How about a previous owner of another brand?
Do you think a manufacturer will keep that design or move on?
The death knell is our older machines lack the support services to upgrade to the newer (like high quality, German made Thun PAS torque sensors) because the protocols differ and information is not provided by the mum manufacturers.
Already we cannot find parts for models still in production.
Exhibit A: Torque Sensor (TS) for the Ltd - now discontinued for a cadence sensor.
Must I beg for the specs? Do you beg to know the specs of your sparkplugs, which typically last 30 times longer than those torque sensors?
Facebook? That's hilarious. 'Sycophant's-book'. Ask a question, some knight (I almost typed 'some knut' - Freudian slip) in 'shilling armor' comes to the manufacturers defense and ad hominin's you to death with irrelevant 'attack the victim' 'you should have known better' anecdotes about his unrivalled experience, how he's 26 and been riding wheeled thingies for 23 years - before admitting he's never even owned an ebike and grew up with the owner.
I don't have to "LIKE" you to get information.
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" .. the rare occasion you need that much power" -
like going up a hill, or when you have to avoid an automobile, or when your pace is timed to get every last red light unless you speed up, but you could just stop and wait a minute, no hurry, being late to work is fine.
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Without a Dyno test, how does one reliably discern the torque of a motor?
I've said I used to build, maintain and drive rally cars. I used a Dyno service and back then I think it was $300ish a run for my built to the hilt 2100cc BMW 4-bangers. It got quite expensive trying various profiled cams and fuel delivery.
The focus was just what I mentioned above: Flatten the torque curve. 'Peak Torque" was the place you backed off from, until you got wide range torque. You want power in as wide a band as possible. Jackrabbits and 'no (rpm) limiters' lose.
I remember changing timing and dropping 20FtLbs of my max to get back on the flat curve. I even went to smaller 40mm DCOE Webers, dumping the larger 45MM DCOE's carbs (against everyone's advice).
My friends shook their drag racing heads, but I gained huge flexibility and beastly uniform power from 2900 - 7000rpm - and my fuel consumption cut by 2/3.
My peak torque was 20% less than the 45's from 1500 - 2900rpm, at which point it crossed (on the chart) and the 40's efficiency of fuel dispersion took over, with a leaner mix. Average comparison with 40's then became: 10% more from 2900 - 4000, 20% more from there to 6000 and a full 40% more from 6 -7000rpm. My cars spent most time at 4000 - 7000rpm. No Brainer.
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500 owners seem to have a high regard for their machines and that is likely the 'torque curve' - more so than peak nm factor. If you have torque higher up, flat on the curve at higher rpm, your bike will be uniformly faster than a bike that has a higher initial peak torque which more rapidly decreases with rpm.
That 500 motor may well be a 'sleeper'. I have (what I consider) valid proof that R1U orders and gets products from these manufacturers that we cannot.
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Regarding what is 'enough v what is unneeded.
If I'm 60nm, I'd think a 'real 55nm' was plenty of torque for hills - then again I don't weigh much.
But if my bike's really 100nm, then 75nm would be kinda' ok but boring and I'd be shopping for something better.
If the comparison was 100nm v 55nm (all being equal), the 55nm would cause big inconveniences; route avoidance; being stuck behind belching busses, worrying about slanted terrain.
This ain't a bombing mission. I often wander the direction I'm going, not play cat-and-mouse, fear-or-consequences or maniacal phone tapping time wasting procedures for possible hills. I drive up the hill. End of story.
Flatlanding it sounds like a built in fail for me.
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The NEED for SPEED: I don't "need' 100nm, I LOVE it. I'd like 150nm if I could.
When you do NEED IT, you have it, but if you don't you have to give up and go around.
I don't like any pre-programmed response to normal terrain to be "you fail, go around". Just not my style. Am I alone here?
Just the thought makes me anxious. What if I try and fail in the middle of the hill ? Is there traffic? It's hard enough dodging the (lifelong) homeless. Many are "heroin zombies" that just step out between cars and keep shuffling along. I bought an air-horn to alert them. Works well, but shifting gears, power failed, zombies and anxious cars trying to get around you on the inside can add up to a terrible ride, headed uphill.
I just cant see buying a bike limited to flat terrain, but I don't live in Nebraska or Kansas.
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In your 1000watt comparison, did you verify the motors were actually drawing 1000watts?
I know my '750/ 1000w' MXUS will not even pull 900watts with the 48v controller set to MAX, 22 Amps. Yet my bike is considerably more powerful than my friend's Bafang - up or down, hills or flat.
My only experience is pretty shallow and rife with flaws. I don't even know the capability or settings of/for his controller. Speaking of which, I had both MAC and MXUS factory reps tell me to use "their 12Amp controller" for their 1000Watt motors and insist it was the norm. Straight from the Manufacturer. I've known more honest Carnival Barkers.
I envy anyone that can deal with these folks and create a great product - like what's-his-name, Kalvin Digger?
But seriously. The real KD is on my 'good guy list'. Never hate on someone you couldn't do better, I say. His margins must be terribly tight.
I hope he doesn't go bankrupt.
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Grin's testing software - here's a company I really like, but get the feeling they're trying to cattle-chute customers into buying their obsolete, 1980's tech, Black and White LCD 'Cycle Analyst'. Why? Because they have a lot of exclusive rights (Like the MAC contract for NA) yet (they say) none of their motors, kits, controllers, or torque sensors will work without their CA display. That means anything you buy from GRIN, you must buy their (dated tech) display. Such business practices don't pass the 'smell test', but their testing software is still of renown and has a realistic and honest rep - hey, why not? It verifies how wonderful their products are - that you must buy their CA to use.
Really a shame the only way to really know is Dyno it and see. Could you imagine if the automobile manufacturers were able to pull numbers outta their butt like this? "4,000HP Fiats" getting "2500Mpg".
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I'm planning on my Ltd costing 5k to complete. Closing on 4k with recent items and Titanium parts (a lot of those parts will go on 2.0).
I'll have a Fox lightweight shocks, maybe some carbon bars next.
At 51lbs stock, I'll be right there with a fabulous Carbon Fiber framed 5k+ Trek (drool, drool), that has no shocks, same tires, no Selle saddle, Kinekt post, Ti clamps, left hand twist throttle, laser lighting, 98 liters worth of front and rear quick detach locking mechanism panniers, racks, the best torque arms made or the $300 fenders I'm having created in anodized black aluminum - I could go on and on.
I didn't get in for the cheap. I bought with the intent to spend 5k on my first bike, to learn the ropes. The Ltd seemed like a good test bed.
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Lastly, R1u specs show the 500's motor is a "48V Geared Hub Shengyi Motor, 28mph (nominal rating of 500w)", not a Bafang.
Is this the new, new, old new or the old old motor? lol
Thank you for the comments.
Brought back a lot of memories and made me think a lot through.

 

[AHicks]

I guess so.....

 

[Fast n' Furious]

After a great amount of research before ordering an E-Bike, I went with the new Limited model from Ride 1 Up. One feature which really got my attention, but probably overlooked by some, was the type of sensor they included in this model. They incorporated a torque sensor vs a rotational sensor. These devises are found by the pedal crank and function to give input to the motor as to how much to assist the rider based on feedback it gets from the force the rider is applying while pedaling. My research pointed out that a torque sensor is more accurate in sensing crank pressure instead of just rotational crank speed, thus providing the rider with a more natural feel of motor assistance. Please note, I have only ridden bikes with rotational sensors, so I cannot say first hand that a torque sensor provides a better riding experience. I think it should be noted that a torque sensor is usually found on more expensive bikes. If my research is correct, Kudos to Ride 1 Up for incorporating this feature in their new model E-Bike that is under $2,000. If anyone has input in this feature, and the accuracy of my description, please comment.

I know. Me too, but as I've posted, they discontinued the torque sensor (TS) and switched to a a cadence PAS on the new Ltd.
My Ltd's TS is failing and my display has gone south as well. Looks like we may have been too smart by half.
How do we obtain a non 'they-all-fail' TS after the warranty ends?
Grin says their TS's have a different protocol and theirs prob won't work. There goes a quality install w/ quality parts - like a Thun TS.
I contacted R1U last week asking for service on the bad parts. No reply as of yet.
This is a big - very expensive - deal. If we have to go with Grin, we must also buy their Cycle Analyst (Yech, an ugly B&W Display) and one of their controllers. Think $600 minimum +Tax + shipping from Canada.
If I don't hear back shortly, I'll put it in the shop and send them a letter demanding it be fixed - properly, not with 'high fail rate parts' they themselves have dropped for just that reason.
This really is a sucker punch I never saw coming. Lets hope 'the man with the plan', KD has an answer. I don't care about buying a quality Thun TS for $200 - if it works. But R1U knows the 'protocols', so they must supply the information to fix it.
Instead of testing high quality TS' and figuring it out, they chose to go the $29 route.
I'm feeling like when the warranty ends (and right now that's why the slo-mo replies. To use up the time) , I'm burned. Bike with flawed parts. No support (Facebook? Really?) and a manufacturer that does not follow up, publish specs or provide alternatives parts listings. We will be on our own and at the mercy of shops that know nothing about our machines, and can't get the information - because R1U has not published it.
If owners have any issues they better raise them before the warranty ends. I know I sure am.

Fn'F

 

[Fast n' Furious]

Unfortunately we who have cadence sensors are stuck with them. You’re 100% correct. Torque Is the way to go, but I believe it adds to the cost. Let me ask a question? Do you know if it’s possible to convert to torque, and how costly would it be? I overcome this problem by putting my PAS to 0 and just pedal without power when I’m approaching people and other bikes. It is an inconvenience, but I don’t want to be disrespectful of others.

https://ebikes.ca/thun-120l.html All of the rest of Grin's TS are Chinese side cable exit types. This one is made in Germany by the inventor of the TS.
You'll also need this: https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/cycle-analysts.html
And this: https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-parts/controllers.html
Actually, the side cable type may eliminate the real killer of TS': The wire being chafed or cut transferring that little center hole.
Considering you are upgrading to a bullet-proof controller - that's the output it say's it is - made in USA and Canada, that future-proofs your machine in that aspect - good investment. The Thun is the bomb. The CA Display has all the best, most useful features, but the looks - 1980's Robby-the Robot SciFi w/ an ugly black and green LCD Display - you have to bite the bullet and put up with.

That's my research in a nutshell - and a lot of research; emails to Grin; MSUX; MAC; Thun and numerous suppliers.
USA are a bunch of fails. We Yankees don't make squat. Even Grin's controllers that have USA circuitry are only wholesaled in Canada?
Outrageous. It's exported to be re-imported? Grin even has a lock on North American MAC distribution - another story and rightfully so.
Why build bikes out of Chinese components? Lots more money making American Made, quality replacement parts for junk that fails. Instead, Canada is using us like a Bangladeshi Seamstress to manufacture their products, to sell to us?
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Anyhow. Yup, it's doable - but it'll cost ya !!!

Fn'F