What would you like as the maximum cut off Assist Speed Restriction? Newer eMTB have tremendously reduced the friction when peddling without motor assistance making motors very expensive compared to the higher cut off torque speeds where the momentum of the eMTB makes it almost unnoticeable. eMTB are designed for USA/NZ standards preserving the "fit 4 purpose" motor and battery. Riding a eMTB that jolts between 18kg and 25kg is not very healthy for the joints and ligaments. Bike manufacturers are only interested in selling expensive eMTB instead of supporting a positive "Intent for Purpose" better for value outcome.
25kph/15.5mph or 32kph/20mph Vote
- Thread starter Geforce
- Start date
Outdated 2012 EU laws
EU 2012 voted law
EU 2012 voted law
What you need to do is read HR727 and understand that instead of an assist limit at 20mph it actually defines a power limit per the 170lb rider on a level surface. The assist that can sustain 20mph per those contraints can continue beyond 20mph (governed power) such that only the rider's effort are creating the additional speed. It's actually so much better than the assist cut-offs that People for Bikes just put into their "model ebike legislation" (it's anything but) because that is how Europe decided to neuter ebike speed performance.
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I would be shocked if anyone voted for the 25kph / 15mph EU specification as that kills the potential for an ebike to be an effective urban mobility solution.
We need ebikes to be the best urban mobility solution possible to supplement car ownership and even replace owning a car when possible. Neutering ebike performance may make sense on trails and some multi-mode paths but speed limits make much better sense because effective transportation must have a higher average speed because in reality time is money in modern economies.
I think what puzzles me is that some people seem to think it's more important that ebikes be kept slow then it is to allow addequate performance to maybe have an impact on climate change. I think a lot of people's priorities are out of whack.
We need ebikes to be the best urban mobility solution possible to supplement car ownership and even replace owning a car when possible. Neutering ebike performance may make sense on trails and some multi-mode paths but speed limits make much better sense because effective transportation must have a higher average speed because in reality time is money in modern economies.
I think what puzzles me is that some people seem to think it's more important that ebikes be kept slow then it is to allow addequate performance to maybe have an impact on climate change. I think a lot of people's priorities are out of whack.
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LimboJim
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
A 15 MPH ebike limit seems appropriate for mixed use trails and paths. It might even be too fast for singletrack.
On the roads, however, "20 is plenty" for me. I can understand the appeal of 28, but cars don't expect bikes to go that fast, and accident injuries become exponentially more serious, too.
On the roads, however, "20 is plenty" for me. I can understand the appeal of 28, but cars don't expect bikes to go that fast, and accident injuries become exponentially more serious, too.
Do we want to set assist limits at the 15mph speed appropriate for trails, paths or singletracks or should riders be expected to know when speeds need to be slower for everyone's safety. I personally don't want to see the urban mobility potential of ebikes ruined because the assist limit is set at a lowest common denominator for safe riding. If we went with that logic we would not allow 300mph hyper sports cars to be on our neighborhood streets. Have speed limits and common sense, not ridiculously low assist limits (neither 15 or 20mph is fast enough for urban mobility effectiveness).
Many have have claimed the higher accident rates of the 28mph Class 3 / speed pedelec models but I have never seen anyone present data.
The fact that you are suggesting limiting the speed of ebikes intended for urban mobility because cars don't expect them to go that fast is just irrational. People don't see most motorcycle riders - I know because I rode a motorcycle for 20 years but I was always on the defensive never was involved in an accident. We should not limit ebike speed because of what car drivers see or don't see (maybe if more of them rode bikes occasionally they would learn to see riders better).
Also you said "20 is plenty fast" for you but do you honestly stay below 20mph even when riding a long downhill grade? There is data that shows that about 99% of bike riders go as fast as 28-32mph during rides because of the speeds going down descents (gravity is a great help or a great impact to bike speeds while ebikes tend to increase the average riding speeds by leveling the climbs). My guess is you don't use your brakes on most descents to keep your riding speed limited to 20mph. I know that I typically hit speeds of 28-34mph on long descents on my ebike (way behond the assist limit) so an assist limit does not prevent top speed limits, they just impact what could be a better average speed for transportation needs. We need more people out of cars...not slower ebike assist limits.
When I'm riding my ebike on road side bike lanes I have a blinking rear light and a rear view mirror so I'm always looking for any car potentially veering into the bike lane. Most riders I see don't have safety lighting or a rear view mirror and then the wonder why they end up dead.
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salyavin
New Member
- Region
- USA
Don't forget your typical road biker can go faster than 20 as well. When I was younger and more fit I would do 35 sprints, pros of course do 34.5mph on a time trial and sprints over 40mph. Basically a lot of these fit guys are faster than your ebike assist level. That does not mean they are safe on a multiuse path in particular. I guess one could argue that an ebike rider may possibly be totally new to riding and a guy riding at over 30 under his own power is usually more experienced. It's not just downhill that one can go over 20 is what I am trying to say and that is in a road bike.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
I won't agree to speed CAPABILITY limits on bikes or ebikes.
How do you down regulate the speed capability of any bike going down hill, aside from using the brakes? It is the speed that is dangerous in mixed use circumstances. The most dangerous situations on mixed use trails that I have seen have been created by pacelines of roadies, ripping along at 25mph or more, too close to moms with strollers and dog walkers with ear buds blasting.
Speed limits on all bikes are totally appropriate and easily enforced with adequate personnel.
Crippling ebikes to keep their speed down would make them slower than a decent road bike ridden by a medium fit rider. What problem is solved by that?
How do you down regulate the speed capability of any bike going down hill, aside from using the brakes? It is the speed that is dangerous in mixed use circumstances. The most dangerous situations on mixed use trails that I have seen have been created by pacelines of roadies, ripping along at 25mph or more, too close to moms with strollers and dog walkers with ear buds blasting.
Speed limits on all bikes are totally appropriate and easily enforced with adequate personnel.
Crippling ebikes to keep their speed down would make them slower than a decent road bike ridden by a medium fit rider. What problem is solved by that?
LimboJim
Well-Known Member
- Region
- USA
I frequently hit speeds above my ebikes' assist limits - are you saying that ebikes will be able to slow that down somehow?
ian fisher
Member
It's often possible to go faster than the motor will allow, but I understand that here in NZ pedelec bikes are limited by power output to a maximum speed of 32kph with 350w motor. Of course, there are bikes available with a much higher motor output, these are sold on the understanding that they are not intended for use on public roads and are capable of speeds greater that 32kph. I think the law here requires that an electric bike with a motor output of more that 350w is classed as a powercycle, and as such is required to be registered annually and warranted (roadworthy) 6 monthly. For myself, the whole point of owning an ebike is to have the ability to commute and run errands about town using the bike paths and cycle lanes ( and often quicker than I could do in a car) without the normally associated taxes of owning a vehicle, and also for pure recreational riding out of the city limits and onto the surrounding hills....like i'm about to do right now.
Alaskan
Well-Known Member
That same 350 watt motor can be programmed to provide assist up to 45 kmph. It is being limited to cut out far below its capacity to accommodate restrictive regulations, which in the case of the UK is 25kmph. The difference between a Bosch CX and a Bosch Speed motor is programed maximum speed and torque curve that delivers its peak torque at lower rpms with the CX and at higher rpms on the Performance Speed. My understanding is that the motors are physically the same with just variations in programming.
ian fisher
Member
25kph seems painfully slow. A quick check on the NZTA webpage reveals that in fact there is no speed limit imposed on ebikes here as long as you are riding within the designated legal limit. There is however a limit on the motor 300w, but as you correctly pointed out, these motors are likely programmable and can be set by the manufacturer depending on which country they are destined for in accordance with the laws of that country.
Strangely enough, e scooters although limited to a 300w motor, are apparently programmed for a top speed of 27kph and can be ridden legally here on the footpaths, cycle paths, and public roads (Lime scooters) but no helmet is required, yet helmets are required by law here for all cyclists.
There have been several accidents involving e scooters with riders receiving head injuries, the combination of speed, small wheels and the fact that anyone with a smartphone can unlock and use a shared scooter but there is still no legal requirement to wear a helmet.
Strangely enough, e scooters although limited to a 300w motor, are apparently programmed for a top speed of 27kph and can be ridden legally here on the footpaths, cycle paths, and public roads (Lime scooters) but no helmet is required, yet helmets are required by law here for all cyclists.
There have been several accidents involving e scooters with riders receiving head injuries, the combination of speed, small wheels and the fact that anyone with a smartphone can unlock and use a shared scooter but there is still no legal requirement to wear a helmet.
NZ doesn't seem to be in hurry to cap ebike speeds which is good thing. I own a 32kmhr and 50kmhr(dongled 25kmhr )ebikes. My cruise speed on 32kmhr is 28kmhr as next gear is little tall for 30kmhr, after 30kmhr assist drops off, find this speed fine for 10-15km commutes. On dongle bike it's 35-40kmhr which is nice pace, with odd higher burst to 50kmhr when needing to mix it with cars. Really needs a x3 dongle as 50-55kmhr is ideal for taking lane with cars. The 45kmhr is stupid speed, to slow to share road with cars and to fast for cycleways, the idiots in Europe that came up with that speed have never ridden a bike on road, car drivers also find it frustrating as bike is to fast to pass quickly.
The 25kmhr speed made sense when odd ebike was sharing crowded dutch cycle lanes with bikes cruising at 15-20kmhr. That is now no longer case as ebikes are heading to 50% or more of commuter bikes in europe. In countries like Australia and UK they should've gone for 32kmhr as few normal bikes on cycleways are typically doing 20-35kmhr.
When it comes to MTBing I've never found 25kmhr cutoff to be much of issue, on uphill single tracks rarely hit cutoff. Only on flat forestry roads is higher speed useful. Most MTB park tracks are one way so collisions shouldn't be issue, between fast eMTBs and MTBs.
The 25kmhr speed made sense when odd ebike was sharing crowded dutch cycle lanes with bikes cruising at 15-20kmhr. That is now no longer case as ebikes are heading to 50% or more of commuter bikes in europe. In countries like Australia and UK they should've gone for 32kmhr as few normal bikes on cycleways are typically doing 20-35kmhr.
When it comes to MTBing I've never found 25kmhr cutoff to be much of issue, on uphill single tracks rarely hit cutoff. Only on flat forestry roads is higher speed useful. Most MTB park tracks are one way so collisions shouldn't be issue, between fast eMTBs and MTBs.
I agree with your statements but I honestly believe the assist limit idea originated outside the ebike industry (I believe it was oil and auto industry driven) to keep ebikes in the recreation and leisure use only capability. Effective assist to 50-55kph would get more people out of cars for urban mobility and that could be a big impact on those huge industries bottom line. They even manufactured consent by saying it was to keep riders safe even though data showed that most riders going down hills had been riding at speeds upwards of 50-55kph.
