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- Thread starter Timpo
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rich c
Well-Known Member
Swapping controllers and displays is very common with the Sondors community. The first bikes accepted any generic hardware. Then Sondors quickly understood it was missing out on parts sales, so changed the protocol language of the controller so it became proprietary. I would suspect that anything but the generic Chinese bikes have proprietary hardware and are not interchangeable. Just speculation on my part.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
The connectors aren't proprietary, and the battery is based on the Reention Dorado so that's swappable. It's the controller itself that may be proprietary. I remember from videos produced a year ago that Tora was talking about tweaking the firmware on the controller to enhance performance. Not sure how much of that would effect what you are trying to do. Ask Juiced if you can get a schematic as a starting point. That will tell you what runs through the controller. If you find a controller with similar configuration, then you might be able to swap out. As you say, the motor etc. are generic. You would lose the benefit of the tweaking Tora did with the controller, but that may not be worth the cost of the Juiced controller to you.
rich c
Well-Known Member
Even if you took the time to reverse engineer most the wiring schematic, I would have concern about the pins going to the hall sensors in the motor. Surely they are wired in a sequence. I know just enough to have the concern, not enough knowledge to help. I do know if I owned the company, I would not release my schematic to the world so a guy could save a few bucks. Actually I wouldn't have the hutzpah to ask him.
harryS
Well-Known Member
I'm familiar with the issue. What happens is generic controllers for hobbyists will have 12-15 cheap connectors (and only need six of them) , while a controller used on a manufactured ebike has two to four molded cables.
I believe that probably most molded motor cables follow the pinout used in Bafang motors. In any case, I have seen two bafangs and several non-bafang hub motors, and the motors all could be plugged into the same controller. However, the handlebar harness is probably different between different makes. I bought the Luna 25A controller that was intended to replace the Sondors fatbike controller, except I didn't have a Sondors. Only the motor cable fit. It was a lot of electrical detective work to splice in the brakes, display, and throttle to the handlebar harness. It was quite a powerful controller though when I finished.
How much extra money is it? Probably worth paying $100-150 more, unless you've got good analytic skills and good soldering skills. Plus the finished cabling will look better and be more reliable. Plus you could upgrade to the torque sensor later, which is probably a good thing if you stay with the Juiced boxes.
If it's $500 more, well you could buy a new controller plus all the controls and a motor for that kind of money, except you still might get those 12 jinky connectors.
As far as tweaking, probably a lot of marketing BS in my opinion. He's probably just adjusting some registers that are predefined in the user manual. If he is actually rewriting the controller firmware, well no one does that, aside from some experts over at endless-sphere who have reverse engineered the firmware for some common KT-controllers, and are taking on the Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive.
I believe that probably most molded motor cables follow the pinout used in Bafang motors. In any case, I have seen two bafangs and several non-bafang hub motors, and the motors all could be plugged into the same controller. However, the handlebar harness is probably different between different makes. I bought the Luna 25A controller that was intended to replace the Sondors fatbike controller, except I didn't have a Sondors. Only the motor cable fit. It was a lot of electrical detective work to splice in the brakes, display, and throttle to the handlebar harness. It was quite a powerful controller though when I finished.
How much extra money is it? Probably worth paying $100-150 more, unless you've got good analytic skills and good soldering skills. Plus the finished cabling will look better and be more reliable. Plus you could upgrade to the torque sensor later, which is probably a good thing if you stay with the Juiced boxes.
If it's $500 more, well you could buy a new controller plus all the controls and a motor for that kind of money, except you still might get those 12 jinky connectors.
As far as tweaking, probably a lot of marketing BS in my opinion. He's probably just adjusting some registers that are predefined in the user manual. If he is actually rewriting the controller firmware, well no one does that, aside from some experts over at endless-sphere who have reverse engineered the firmware for some common KT-controllers, and are taking on the Tongsheng TSDZ2 mid drive.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
You never know until you ask. They're usually pretty good about stuff like this. What's the worst that could happen, they'll come and take your bike back? LOL
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
Opinion. Exactly. Since he says that he has tweaked the firmware, I'm going to take his word for it until given hard data to the contrary.
There's a particular video -- I forget which one -- where he talks about precisely what he is planning to change.
You're going to have to establish more cred regarding your experience with programming and manufacture before I can give your opinion more serious consideration.
Now, I may have misunderstood his comments, and I'm willing to be corrected.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
See the caption on the picture you posted that says "Non-proprietary XT-60 Connectors"?
Also, Tora Harris is a mechanical and aerospace engineer (Princeton University, class of 2002.) The idea that he might have done something more than just "adjusting some registers" is far from unrealistic. This kind of programming isn't rocket science fer chrissakes. Please produce facts and not more opinion and I'll be happy to admit I'm mistaken about this.
rich c
Well-Known Member
Sure, a two pin connector from the battery to the controller is simple XT 60 or XT90 with red and black wires. How about the 9 pin connector from the motor to the controller? By reverse engineering, I meant taking a multi meter and check the continuity from every pin in the system to the destination. That will involve taking the motor apart and finding what each pin connects to. Then how about connecting them to the right wire in the controller? $250 will melt pretty fast if you make a mistake and smoke some parts. How about valuing your time while you figure all this out?
harryS
Well-Known Member
Timpo, the pics indicate a 10A nominal, 20A max controller. More than enough for a 500W motor. What were you expecting out of a change? For the Sondors crowd, the big change for them was going up to 48V. You're already there at 48V?. You'll get a little more acceleration, but otherwise, it's the same bike. I am not sure you get that much benefit.
I don't recommend you buying that controller unless you also get the Sondors PAS sensor, brakes and throttle units with their cables/connectors, because that's what it is wired for. I bought the 25A version and have gone thru the exercise of adapting it to a different harness. You'll have to ID about 12-16 wires and be splicing them. It would be a shame to cut up the Juiced harness. The 25A is a powerful controller. 1200 watts easy at 52V, but I've never used it on my fatbike.
Bruce, I was writing firmware before Tora was born. A boring job, looking back on it, but just one of many things I did in the electronic industry. I view Tora as a successful businessman, and I would have bought his bikes if I had not learned about ebikes earlier. Darn good bikes in my opinion. Great features. Good web ads. No personal experience though,
I don't recommend you buying that controller unless you also get the Sondors PAS sensor, brakes and throttle units with their cables/connectors, because that's what it is wired for. I bought the 25A version and have gone thru the exercise of adapting it to a different harness. You'll have to ID about 12-16 wires and be splicing them. It would be a shame to cut up the Juiced harness. The 25A is a powerful controller. 1200 watts easy at 52V, but I've never used it on my fatbike.
Bruce, I was writing firmware before Tora was born. A boring job, looking back on it, but just one of many things I did in the electronic industry. I view Tora as a successful businessman, and I would have bought his bikes if I had not learned about ebikes earlier. Darn good bikes in my opinion. Great features. Good web ads. No personal experience though,
harryS
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you meant by Sondors throttle unit? Did you mean thumb throttle? I don't have one, so I wouldn't really care if I don't have it..
You need their throttle for plug/play. There's a start button on their throttle. If you don't use their throttle, you will have to cut/splice the throttle connector for a jumper wire which then allows the LCD to start the controller.
The Luna/Sondors controllers also use a pedal assist sensor that is attached to a pedal arm. Your Juiced sensor on the rear axle might work, but the connector may differ.
Oh well, I agree that $450 is quite spendy for a Juiced upgrade, but the Luna upgrade requires some custom wiring, even if you acquire the Sondors peripherals to minimize it..
You need their throttle for plug/play. There's a start button on their throttle. If you don't use their throttle, you will have to cut/splice the throttle connector for a jumper wire which then allows the LCD to start the controller.
The Luna/Sondors controllers also use a pedal assist sensor that is attached to a pedal arm. Your Juiced sensor on the rear axle might work, but the connector may differ.
Oh well, I agree that $450 is quite spendy for a Juiced upgrade, but the Luna upgrade requires some custom wiring, even if you acquire the Sondors peripherals to minimize it..
harryS
Well-Known Member
That is a throttle with a start button, but I cannot tell you if it's pin compatible with the Sondors controller, or if the cable is long enough to reach the harness on the Luna controller. You will still have to see if the Juiced brake levers plug in (and have the reach).
The two speed motor kit ...is it even still for sale? That is a Xiongda design designed to climb hills. It uses a special controller that reverses the motor direction, which in turn keeps the wheel turning forward but engages a super low set of gears for climbing. I don't think it's built for speed. There were some reports you had to be careful about backing up as it could engage the gears and strip them. I thought it would be fun to own one and see if I could tow my car with it, but there are no hills where I live.
The two speed motor kit ...is it even still for sale? That is a Xiongda design designed to climb hills. It uses a special controller that reverses the motor direction, which in turn keeps the wheel turning forward but engages a super low set of gears for climbing. I don't think it's built for speed. There were some reports you had to be careful about backing up as it could engage the gears and strip them. I thought it would be fun to own one and see if I could tow my car with it, but there are no hills where I live.
Bruce Arnold
Well-Known Member
OK, @Timpo, now I get your point.
Here's another way of looking at it: cost-benefit analysis.
You're hoping to get improved performance at a lower cost. It doesn't seem technically feasible with the equipment and/or expertise available.
Therefore, spend the extra money because the improvement is worth it to you, or make the most of the performance you already have (which ain't bad) at no additional cost whatsoever.
Here's another way of looking at it: cost-benefit analysis.
You're hoping to get improved performance at a lower cost. It doesn't seem technically feasible with the equipment and/or expertise available.
Therefore, spend the extra money because the improvement is worth it to you, or make the most of the performance you already have (which ain't bad) at no additional cost whatsoever.
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