2017 commuter ebike - izip e3 dash vs haibike trekking 4.0

[Bryan995]

Hi All,

I've recently moved, and now have the opportunity to bike commute (previously I lived 0.5 miles from work, so I walked)

New commute is 4.5miles each way, with a large hill in the middle.

Looking for a well-built commuter bike that can be used daily and or taken on local paths, to grocery store, etc etc.

Live in sunny CA, so little risk of cold/rain. Per CA law, class 1/2 look to be the most permissive. Class 3 is banned from bike paths (not bike lanes).

I've narrowed things down to two bikes.

2017 HaiBike Trekking 4.0 (20mph, class 1)
2017 Izip E3 dash (28mph, class 3)

Working with both a local dealer and a remote dealer.

After some negotation, I can get the Izip E3 via remote dealer for ~$1550 OTD or the Haibike trekking for $2200 OTD via local dealer.

Does the Haibike command a $700 increase over the iZip in anyone's opinion?


Is there another key bike I am leaving out?

Thanks !

 

[hurricane56]

If this is going to be short distance commuter, 20mph Class 1 bike will work. If you ever need the higher top speed, the Yamaha drive could possibly be unlocked via plug-in tuner.

The iZip E3 has a better front fork, RockShox Paragon vs the SunTour model on the Haibike. I feel the Yamaha drive unit is more popular than the TransX.

As far as the class of ebike, I think nobody cares at the moment as long as you're not being a jerk with speed or crazy in traffic.

 

[e-boy]

Poster is asking about SDuro not XDuro .

 

[e-boy]

Poster is asking about SDuro not XDuro .

 

[rich c]

I'm a huge Haibike fan, but only with Bosch power. The premium for Bosch is worth every penny in my book.

 

[hurricane56]

I’d look at a Haibike Trekking S, with Bosch Performance Speed motor. The only thing I didn’t like about the 2016 model that I bought on clearance was the front fork. The SunTour forks are heavy and it didn’t really make a difference in the ride quality.

 

[Over50]

@Over50 owns a Trekking 4.0.

His experiences are described in the thread below:

https://electricbikereview.com/forums/threads/over-50s-2017-xduro-trekking-4-0-chronicles.13845/

Actually the poster didn't specify Xduro or Sduro (unless I missed it) but I guess based on the price quoted it has to be Sduro. But both are discounted pretty heavily right now so Xduro would be a good suggestion. Perhaps the prices will come down even more as we get to year end. So the commute sounds very short but with a large hill. The Bosch CX will power up that hill and since the distance is short range will not be an issue.

 

[Bryan995]

Actually the poster didn't specify Xduro or Sduro (unless I missed it) but I guess based on the price quoted it has to be Sduro. But both are discounted pretty heavily right now so Xduro would be a good suggestion. Perhaps the prices will come down even more as we get to year end. So the commute sounds very short but with a large hill. The Bosch CX will power up that hill and since the distance is short range will not be an issue.

Yes sorry all. I was refering to the Sduro Trekking 4.0 with Yamaha PW not the Bosch powered Xduro. Everything I read says to go Bosch and it seems like you all echo that .

Will have to call for pricing but I have a feeling the Xduro trekking may be closer to 3k?

In that case is it worth the 2x price increase over the IZIP? If the haibike will hold its value more so than the IZIP then I have no issue paying a bit more now. But if in 4 years both are down to $500 resale then the IZIP seems like the way to go. Thanks for the help!

 

[Bryan995]

I’d look at a Haibike Trekking S, with Bosch Performance Speed motor. The only thing I didn’t like about the 2016 model that I bought on clearance was the front fork. The SunTour forks are heavy and it didn’t really make a difference in the ride quality.

Second time I’ve seen that. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Bryan995]

He asked for other suggestions. I really wouldn't get an Sduro. And I own one...

Hmm ... Sounds like the Yamaha Sduro is out then!? IZIP vs Xduro?

 

[hurricane56]

Just for reference my Trekking S Xduro was $2699 during last years clearance.

As for resale the Haibike might have an edge but seeing resale ads for ebikes here in the SF Bay Area, many bikes are posted for sale at 40-50% off the original sale price after less than a year. I’d recommend buying the bike that fits your needs now and not factor in resale.

 

[hurricane56]

He asked for other suggestions. I really wouldn't get an Sduro. And I own one...

What did you not like about the Yamaha system?

 

[Bryan995]

Just for reference my Trekking S Xduro was $2699 during last years clearance.

As for resale the Haibike might have an edge but seeing resale ads for ebikes here in the SF Bay Area, many bikes are posted for sale at 40-50% off the original sale price after less than a year. I’d recommend buying the bike that fits your needs now and not factor in resale.

Perfect - appreciate that data point. Best I can find for the Sduro trekking 4.0 is $1999, so $700 more for the Xduro seems reasonable. Still need to do a bit more searching around re. best pricing. I am down in SD.

 

[Bryan995]

Yeah exactly - doing just that. I think finding a deal is more important than getting a specific brand/model to me.
First e-bike, so once I test the waters a bit, I figure I could always upgrade 2-3 years down the line.

 

[Over50]

... Will have to call for pricing but I have a feeling the Xduro trekking may be closer to 3k?...
In that case is it worth the 2x price increase over the IZIP? If the haibike will hold its value more so than the IZIP then I have no issue paying a bit more now. But if in 4 years both are down to $500 resale then the IZIP seems like the way to go. Thanks for the help!

I was seeing the Xduro prices yesterday of about $3500. Maybe they will come down more. But I like your thinking. If you're testing the waters and think you might upgrade in a few years - and particularly because your commute is shorter - then the IZIP sounds like a great way to go (although I don't have experience with IZIP). It would be nice if you could find a local dealer for that IZIP however. You'd definitely want to test it out.

 

[hurricane56]

I was seeing the Xduro prices yesterday of about $3500. Maybe they will come down more. But I like your thinking. If you're testing the waters and think you might upgrade in a few years - and particularly because your commute is shorter - then the IZIP sounds like a great way to go (although I don't have experience with IZIP). It would be nice if you could find a local dealer for that IZIP however. You'd definitely want to test it out.

It’s always a balancing act between waiting for more of a discount and having it now with your preferred frame size. last year the commuter oriented bikes were in stock well past the new year.

 

[hurricane56]

1. The drive has a tendency to resist your efforts above a certain RPM level, and the cadence window in which it provides power is pretty limited. This is perceptible in Standard mode, and painfully perceptible in ECO and ECO+ modes.

This has several consequences:

- If you want to tour around in a hilly area, you need to be really fit with the Yamaha. I use ECO mode only when absolutely needed. The Bosch and Shimano ECO modes are infinitely easier on the knees.

- If you want to climb a hill, the lowest gears might not necessarily be the best gears. If you're spinning away in 1st gear you will quickly hit a cadence where power drops off. This means you'll need to shift up a gear or two to get power. But it also means that climbing will be more difficult on the knees (once again). I climb a 7% grade incline every day and the bike is in 8th or 9th gear (meaning, 2-3 gears away from 11 teeth). I hand't noticed this until someone remarked that I was climbing in a really high gear. Might explain why my knees ache sometimes...

- Because the cadence is limited, the bike requires an inordinate number of gear shifts in traffic. Think of a scenario where you have several consecutive red lights. After the first red light goes green, I need to shift up 6 times to reach cruising speed. But as soon as I reach cruising speed, I have to shift down several times as well. And start over at each red light. Other drives, like the Bosch or the Shimano have a more intelligent way of dealing with this. Start in 1st gear and shift into second or third gear, then increase the number of RPMs instead of shifting through all the gears. You'll get just as much power and won't constantly be changing gears.


2. The engineering on some of the parts isn't up to Yamaha standards.

- The remote is fastened by screws which “bite” into the plastic casing. The result is that it’s impossible to tighten them so that the remote doesn’t swivel around the handlebars. This means that it’s nearly impossible to walk the bike up a hill using RUN mode. Press on the RUN button and the remote simply swivels out of your hand.

-The bike’s remote is designed in such a manner that you have to take your right hand off the handlebars in order to switch to another level of assist. But the remote often slips away...

- The button to power on the bike is starting to fail. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

- The diagnostic button on the battery sometimes doesn't work.

3. Although not directly Yamaha's fault, the lighting on many Trekking Sduros is not sufficient for riding in the countryside at night. I have a Trekking Sduro S 6.0 which has a 60 lux light. When riding in the forest at night I can't see the contours of the road ahead. This is because the projected beam is too narrow and the lights not powerful enough.

So, if I had to do it again, I wouldn't buy a Yamaha powered bike. This is particularly true of the older PW drive system, which still equips most SDUROs.

That's really good insight on the Yamaha system. Also completely agree on the stock lighting. The 60 lux unit is barely adequate for 20mph city riding. The first thing about night commuting is that you live and die by your lighting setup.

 

[Bryan995]

1. The drive has a tendency to resist your efforts above a certain RPM level, and the cadence window in which it provides power is pretty limited. This is perceptible in Standard mode, and painfully perceptible in ECO and ECO+ modes.

This has several consequences:

- If you want to tour around in a hilly area, you need to be really fit with the Yamaha. I use ECO mode only when absolutely needed. The Bosch and Shimano ECO modes are infinitely easier on the knees.

- If you want to climb a hill, the lowest gears might not necessarily be the best gears. If you're spinning away in 1st gear you will quickly hit a cadence where power drops off. This means you'll need to shift up a gear or two to get power. But it also means that climbing will be more difficult on the knees (once again). I climb a 7% grade incline every day and the bike is in 8th or 9th gear (meaning, 2-3 gears away from 11 teeth). I hand't noticed this until someone remarked that I was climbing in a really high gear. Might explain why my knees ache sometimes...

- Because the cadence is limited, the bike requires an inordinate number of gear shifts in traffic. Think of a scenario where you have several consecutive red lights. After the first red light goes green, I need to shift up 6 times to reach cruising speed. But as soon as I reach cruising speed, I have to shift down several times as well. And start over at each red light. Other drives, like the Bosch or the Shimano have a more intelligent way of dealing with this. Start in 1st gear and shift into second or third gear, then increase the number of RPMs instead of shifting through all the gears. You'll get just as much power and won't constantly be changing gears.


2. The engineering on some of the parts isn't up to Yamaha standards.

- The remote is fastened by screws which “bite” into the plastic casing. The result is that it’s impossible to tighten them so that the remote doesn’t swivel around the handlebars. This means that it’s nearly impossible to walk the bike up a hill using RUN mode. Press on the RUN button and the remote simply swivels out of your hand.

-The bike’s remote is designed in such a manner that you have to take your right hand off the handlebars in order to switch to another level of assist. But the remote often slips away...

- The button to power on the bike is starting to fail. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

- The diagnostic button on the battery sometimes doesn't work.

3. Although not directly Yamaha's fault, the lighting on many Trekking Sduros is not sufficient for riding in the countryside at night. I have a Trekking Sduro S 6.0 which has a 60 lux light. When riding in the forest at night I can't see the contours of the road ahead. This is because the projected beam is too narrow and the lights not powerful enough.

So, if I had to do it again, I wouldn't buy a Yamaha powered bike. This is particularly true of the older PW drive system, which still equips most SDUROs.

Awesome - thanks for the incredible write up. You've convinced me to steer clear of the yamaha drives for the time being. Which of course means that I would need to step up to a Xduro treekking for significant more money.

Local dealer just called and offered a 2017 Haibiki Xduro Trekking S (bosch speed powered) for $3200. Hmm ... I think I might be able to do a tad better if I wait a bit longer ..

Still very much worried about buying the IZIP via remote dealer, having an issue and then being stranded without local dealer support. Even though the price is very attractive. It seems like even if I don't buy the IZIP from the local dealer, they may still be able to / obligated to help with IZIP warranty work? The Xduro 5.0 sure is tempting, but it a bit overkill for my current needs.

 

[motostrano]

Here are some great clearance deals we have available for you to consider:

http://www.motostrano.com/Scott-SCOTT-E-SUB-EVO-p/242060.htm

http://www.motostrano.com/Haibike-SDRUO-Hardnine-Street-4-5-Ebike-2017-p/sdndhd9s.htm

http://www.motostrano.com/Haibike-SDURO-CROSS-4-0-High-Step-Ebike-2017-p/hashor4.htm

http://www.motostrano.com/Haibike-XDURO-Cross-RC-Ebike-p/xdcrosrc.htm

JOe

 

[hurricane56]

Awesome - thanks for the incredible write up. You've convinced me to steer clear of the yamaha drives for the time being. Which of course means that I would need to step up to a Xduro treekking for significant more money.

Local dealer just called and offered a 2017 Haibiki Xduro Trekking S (bosch speed powered) for $3200. Hmm ... I think I might be able to do a tad better if I wait a bit longer ..

Still very much worried about buying the IZIP via remote dealer, having an issue and then being stranded without local dealer support. Even though the price is very attractive. It seems like even if I don't buy the IZIP from the local dealer, they may still be able to / obligated to help with IZIP warranty work? The Xduro 5.0 sure is tempting, but it a bit overkill for my current needs.

The service portion is something you'll need to check with the iZip. Just as an example, my friend with a Bulls bike had to pay the LBS a diagnostic fee to initiate a warranty claim on his Bosch powerpack 400. He did not buy the bike at the LBS. This is the one grey zone with many ebike service experiences, it probably varies widely amongst manufacturer and LBS. Even my local dealer where I purchased the bike from has to charge for labor on a warranty parts replacement. The last time I had a repair done they were kind enough to waive the fee, but were upfront about disclosing that before work commenced. I'm guessing Haibike does not compensate the LBS for their time. If you do inquire with the iZip people, you'll also want to ask if the TransX takes software updates and if that would result in a dealer service fee as well.