Riding without the motor

So interesting to see how people use and not use the assist available to them. I started out with a 'lowest possible assist at all times' policy, but OFF wasn't really an option with the 70 lb torque-sensing hub-drive commuter I was riding at the time.

That policy got me back in shape as hoped, but finally realized how silly it was. I could layer as much exertion as I wanted on any assist level, and I was missing out on a lot of fun and saved time at higher levels.

OFF first became a good option with the 38 lb power-sensing mid-drive gravel bike I ride now. And the policy now is to have no policy. If I have the time and battery for it, I use the level that seems right in the moment. Always exerting myself to some extent, and 30-40% of the time in my mix of hills and flats, the right level is OFF.
Totally hear that, Jeremy. On my bike (75lb fat-tire ebike) it’s just not feasible for me to ride without power if there’s any uphill incline at all. Basically, I only turn the motor off on level trail or slight downgrade where I can pedal to at least 10MPH (about the minimum I’m comfortable riding). The motor is never off when I’m on the road as I don’t like to be much below 15MPH.

My bike just isn’t geared for riding without power, and the geometry is meant for comfortable riding and not aggressive pounding (which isn’t to say that I don’t bang over some aggressive single tracks sometimes!). That’s appropriate for me, and I’m delighted to have been back riding for the past year and a half after a long dearth. Bottom line for me is that being on my bike for two hours or so at a time is really a wonderful, daily (well, let’s say every other day) event.
 
The notable part of this tech, while nothing new, is that the pedals are not connected to the wheels.
They just basically operate a virtual throttle but still are technically within the law.
Ive always thought of making something like this if I lost my car licence.

If this virtual peddaling is legal and these machines are used all over the country, then it opens up the notion of what is pedalling.
Disable people are allowed to ebike by hand pedalling, but if you dont need a direct connection then 'pedalling' could be reduced to the tiniest circular motion on the grips.
Even footpegs would be 'legal' if they had a miniscule cranking motion.

I think we should exploit these loopholes asap 😋
 
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The notable part of this tech, while nothing new, is that the pedals are not connected to the wheels.
They just basically operate a virtual throttle but still are technically within the law.
Ive always thought of making something like this if I lost my car licence.

If this virtual peddaling is legal and these machines are used all over the country, then it opens up the notion of what is pedalling.
Disable people are allowed to ebike by hand pedalling, but if you dont need a direct connection then 'pedalling' could be reduced to the tiniest circular motion on the grips.
Even footpegs would be 'legal' if they had a miniscule cranking motion.

I think we should exploit these loopholes asap 😋
What a fun video! Really enjoyed! Not sure what to think of the virtual pedaling. Very interesting development (virtual pedaling) and I wonder where it’ll go.
 
My bike just isn’t geared for riding without power, and the geometry is meant for comfortable riding and not aggressive pounding (which isn’t to say that I don’t bang over some aggressive single tracks sometimes!). That’s appropriate for me, and I’m delighted to have been back riding for the past year and a half after a long dearth. Bottom line for me is that being on my bike for two hours or so at a time is really a wonderful, daily (well, let’s say every other day) event.
The important thing is to have a bike that fully supports the kind of riding you really look forward to. And we've both been lucky enough to arrive at that point with your fattie and my Vado SL.

20240822_163537.jpg

Just before plunking down for the SL, I rode my 70 lb commuter to Del Mar and back: 24 mi, 1100 ft of climbing, only 3-4 blocks of assist. Wanted to convince myself that I was ready for an ebike with half the weight, half the power, and half the torque.

Screenshot_20251019_104305_Ride with GPS.jpg

As you can see, that stretch of Coast Highway's more corrugated than flat, and more a square than a sine wave in profile.

Wasn't a terrible ride by any means — mostly enjoyable in fact. But my bum knees made it quite clear afterwards that I wasn't to pull a stunt like that again.

Cruising at speed in OFF was a little slower than usual but otherwise fine. Accelerating that high-inertia bike in OFF was the problem— especially starting out.

20251017_170419.jpg

Same ride in OFF on the SL a few months later was a very different experience. Quite pleasant the whole way, faster, and no guff from the knees. Helped that the SL's half the weight, less upright, more aero itself, noticeably easier to roll, and much more responsive to rider inputs of all kinds.

Upshot for this thread: If you really want to ride a lot in OFF, equipment and knee health make big differences.
 
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I have a cargo bike which happens to work very nicely as a regular bike with the motor off in spite of its 72+ pounds weight. I usually start any trip with the motor off and kick the drive in as needed for hills, sore knees ( old guy, many motorcycle crashes ) or loads of beer or groceries.

this weeks grocery run was completed without the motor being engaged at all.

using it only as needed can only make the battery and my heart last longer… so that’s a good thing then, I suppose…

IMG_0689.jpeg
 
I get knee pain on long rides, just above the kneecap, nothing too bad, but it feels like I could be doing damage.
Cadence. Try pedalling at > 80 rpm. Low gear.

Back on topic: I will reiterate: If I wanted (and could) to ride with the motor off, I would have bought a lightweight traditional bike.

14.7 km/h
My average speed on a Specialized Diverge...

14.0 km/h
My average speed on a Specialized Epic 8 Expert...

21.8 km/h
My average speed on a 70 mi gravel ride, Vado SL...

26.2 km/h
My average speed on a 104 km gravel ride together with performing cyclists, Vado 5.0 (45 km/h).

Riding without the motor does not improve your effort. You just ride longer and for a shorter distance...
 
I get knee pain on long rides, just above the kneecap, nothing too bad, but it feels like I could be doing damage.
Pushing my seat up above perfect height seems to fix it, but that can lead to hip pain and scrotumachyitis.

I think the best way forward is shorter rides
I think my bike weighs 90 pounds. When I recharged last time, the display said the battery was down to 22% and I'd been 270 miles. I pedal mostly without the motor, but a few motor watts help on hills.

With my first e-bike, I was totally reliant on the motor until I moved the seat back several inches so I could pedal better. Sometimes I'd start to get a pain under my kneecap. Sliding back another inch, so my butt hung over the back of the seat, would quickly fix it. I think it improved lubrication. The guy that runs Area 13 has said that moving an e-bike seat forward or back even an inch can make a big difference. Lance Armstrong says if an exercise causes knee pain, the best course is not to quit doing it, but to arrange it so you don't been your knee so far. An exercise that can damage a knee can also help it.

I thought I had saddle height right on one bike, but as I rode it more I liked it less. Lowering it 1cm helped a lot. If a seat is too high, you rock your pelvis. I guess hip pain could be a result.

I don't know what scrotumachyitis is, but I think I experienced it this summer, with certain shorts. I knew the athletic supporter was invented for bicyclists. I bought two and they worked. Replacing my worn-out jockey briefs might have accomplished the same thing.
 
I could have sworn there was a thread about this, but I cannot find it.

That aside, work has been stressful lately, and the weather has gotten pretty nice...so I'm riding more. And the timing couldn't be any better. Starting a few weeks ago, my stress levels got so high, that the only way I could get to sleep at night was to work out for 4-5 hours per day...just wearing myself out. For some reason I took out the Allant when I should have been riding analog.

I couldn't ride slow enough with the energy I needed to burn, so I kicked the motor off. Before I knew it, I'd been riding 2 hours with no motor. On a probably 75 lb bike with all the crap on it. I did this for a few more days, then an 11-day vacation kicked in...saved by the bell.

But it sparked an epiphany. This is the time of year that I'm getting my legs back under me, and what better way to do that than to ride this thing initially with no motor...only using it to get out of a sketchy situation or get me back home when I get tired. I also want to get into bikepacking & this seems like a good way to make sure I wanna do that before committing to a heavy, bulky bike without a motor. A bikepacking simulator if you will.

I think I'm going to keep doing this whether or not I get the bikepacking thing going actually. It can be tough to get in a path workout without going too fast...people everywhere. But add 3 bikes' worth of weight onto one, and all of the sudden, you're putting in the work without hauling a$$. And I can carry the kitchen sink!

How about y'all? Anybody ride with it turned off?
Well, if the ground is flat, you can ride off no problem. But come to San Francisco.....dont think so.
 
I have found very interesting results for my friend Bartosz P riding a traditional gravel bike and then an e-bike in a similar terrain on a race (Varmia Gravel) in two consecutive years:
  • 2024, gravel bike, 100 miles, average gross speed: 24.00 km/h
  • 2025, Trek eCaliber, 50 miles, average gross speed: 24.17 km/h.
His e-bike was restricted to 25 km/h and had a small 250 Wh battery. My buddy was riding well above 25 km/h (meaning with the motor off) on the flat and he only had the motor working on numerous steep climbs.

What do these results prove? He didn't gain very much from riding an e-bike. His effort was mostly his leg power. Only he won the 2025 eSprint but was 24/104 on a classic gravel race.

Now, let us compare Bartosz P (45 yo) to Marek S (54 yo) on the same 2025 Great Lakes Gravel race route:
  • Marek S was riding a carbon gravel bike to achieve the average gross speed of 26.00 km/h
  • Bartosz P was riding a Trek eCaliber. His average gross speed was 24.95 km/h.
One might even say an e-bike was a liability for Bartosz! Only he won eSprint again while Marek was 20/50 on the traditional 94 km race.
 
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Ebikes are for the less capable and the mad arses.

Keepsmiling Youtuber rides 120 miles a day offroad in hilly terrain on a no suspension motorless gravel bike.

Im goosed after 25 miles offroad in Turbo on Fox float.
e-MTBs are for zooming technical singletracks in serious mountains :) You would probably gain more from riding a proper XC e-bike.

I'm serious. Formerly mine Giant Trance E+, as a proper FS e-MTB as your Levo was always tiresome to me. Last May, I had a plan to borrow the Trance from Jacek for Sudovia Gravel race (a lot of very steep climbs, gravel and dirt roads). Then I realised the only area where I was really smiling while riding the Trance was the big forest around (sand, tree-roots). Otherwise, the e-MTB was making me spent and I could only ride it slowly. I returned the e-MTB to my brother immediately and chose my Big Vado for the race, which was the only sensible choice.

You will certainly agree the worse terrain it is the better your Levo feels?
 
Yes, too much supension is tiring, but also less jarring, Im going to have to choose comfort over endurance.
Im much more likely to injure my old bones from impact than effort.
 
Yes, too much supension is tiring, but also less jarring, Im going to have to choose comfort over endurance.
Im much more likely to injure my old bones from impact than effort.
I just want you to realise the suspension is not for the ride comfort but for the traction at all times. What really gives the ride comfort (and extra traction) is the tyre pressure (that might be calculated with the Wolf Tooth Bike Tire Pressure Calculator). This anecdote will illustrate the thing:

The scariest descent I've ever experienced was riding down from the Great Owl Mt (Poland). It was a very steep, rocky descent, and I had no choice but to ride at high speed. When I stopped at the bottom, I realised both the front and rear suspension had been locked! It was only the lowly inflated 2.6" tyres to provide the traction and suspension!
 
Well, if the ground is flat, you can ride off no problem. But come to San Francisco.....dont think so.
Not quite as black-and-white as that.

I ride hills with my 38 lb Vado SL in OFF when I feel like it. The steepest gradient I'll tackle on a given day depends on gearing, personal cadence requirements, and mood — especially how slow I'm willing to go.

Max possible for me is 4-5% — nothing like the steepest SF hills but far from flat. Steeper than that in OFF, and I can't maintain a knee-friendly cadence (75+ rpm) with the 22-99 gear-inch gearing I now have.

I can balance down to ~3.5 mph now, so that's usually not the limiting factor.
 
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I just want you to realise the suspension is not for the ride comfort but for the traction at all times. What really gives the ride comfort (and extra traction) is the tyre pressure (that might be calculated with the Wolf Tooth Bike Tire Pressure Calculator). This anecdote will illustrate the thing:

The scariest descent I've ever experienced was riding down from the Great Owl Mt (Poland). It was a very steep, rocky descent, and I had no choice but to ride at high speed. When I stopped at the bottom, I realised both the front and rear suspension had been locked! It was only the lowly inflated 2.6" tyres to provide the traction and suspension!
Thats the theory, but my low pressure 4.8s on 100mm suspension batter my arms and palms into submission, the Fox 170mm on the Levo with 2.5s pumped rock hard glide over rock gardens.
 
Thats the theory, but my low pressure 4.8s on 100mm suspension batter my arms and palms into submission, the Fox 170mm on the Levo with 2.5s pumped rock hard glide over rock gardens.
Asphalt around here is old and rough. With my first e-bike, at the tires’ minimum of 30 psi, bumps were severe on my wrists and spine. Control was very poor. A springy seat and suspension post made little difference.

The geometry of this bike was entirely different from that typical of 3-speeds before JFK. It goes back to the 1886 Rover, in the days of cobblestones and solid tires. Safety bikes, with 28” wheels, were unpopular because they rode rougher than the 56” wheels of penny-farthings, invented by James Starley. His nephew John solved the problem by moving the seat maybe 12” aft. He used a cantilever post so the seat could be adjusted fore and aft as well as up and down.

This transferred weight from the seat to the pedals. The bottom bracket is the best place for the rider’s weight because a bump lifts it only about half as high as either axle. Besides, the rider’s ankles, knees, and hips are made to absorb shocks. Moving the seat aft also stabilized the rider’s weight for better control and less danger of going over the bars.

This made bicycling popular as transportation and not just a daredevil sport. When pneumatic tires came along, they were icing on the cake. Their first selling point was not comfort but reduced rolling resistance.

Moving the seat aft can transfer weight to the hands as well as the feet. This can be fixed by raising the bars to maybe 8” above seat height. When JFK took office, American adults were riding 3-speeds, mostly imported, with seats well aft of bottom brackets and adjustable bars well above seats. He put a prohibitive tariff on everything but racers. Now an adult needing a utility bike had to buy a racer. A racer needed low bars to reduce air drag. Low bars required a forward seat to reduce weight on the hands. JFK had taken American bicycling back to the geometry the public had once rejected.

JFK’s favorites, Schwinns, were so bad that they were free for the taking. Mountain biking was the sport of crashing them. The only way to make them go was to point them downhill. They weren’t safe going downhill because they had only a coaster brake. They handled poorly, so a sharp turn could mean a crash. Along came Specialized, who realized there was money to be made with imports designed to make it a racing sport. To snap in and out of tight turns, bars had to be low, and low bars required forward seats.

I moved my first e-bike seat aft for stability and control. I discovered that it greatly improved pedaling, and a simple racing saddle gave me a smoother ride than I’d had with a big, springy saddle and suspension post in the original position. My fourth e-bike was the first where I didn’t need aftermarket hardware to raise the bars. It was also my first with a front suspension. I thought that was a big improvement until I discovered that bumps were equally comfortable with the suspension locked out.

I run 50 psi in my 20 x 2.4 tires. When I remember to check, I may find that it has dropped to 45 or even 40. The first time I increased pressure from 40 to 50, I expected to feel a harsher ride. I didn’t. The world learned in 1886 that with the proper positioning of seat and handlebars, a rider’s legs can be excellent shock absorbers.
 
2.6" tyres can be easily ridden at as low as 25 psi or even less (depending on the rider's + e-bike weight). Fat tyres can be run under hysterically low pressure.
 
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