Another new TQ motor: hpr40

[Calcoaster]

Something about the automatic translation (ai?) with both voices the same makes me feel as if I've just joined a cult...

I watched that segment again and the translation said the BMC is a “super light unicycle …”
No wonder it only weight 8.5kg!
Then when you bolt on the front half of the bike it will weigh more than the canyon. Or the AI translator is showing its limitations.

 

[mschwett]

theoretically... You could do even better.

the lightest mass produced disc brake bikes out there weigh a bit under 6kg. Scott addict RC, Canyon Ultimate CF Evo Disc 10.0 LTD, s-works aethos, all in the 5.8 to 5.95 kg range. it’s safe to say that if there was some easy way to go way under that on a 2x road bike with disc brakes, someone would have. There are 4.x kg bikes out there but often single speed with all kinds of crazy bits and pieces.

so let’s start with 5.8. the tq hpr40 replaces the bottom bracket, which weighs 65 grams, and the di2 battery can go also, another 52 grams saved, so we’re at 5.68 if we start with a $13,000 build and remove a few redundant items. now we need to add the hpr 40 motor 1,170g and battery is 1,460g. 2.63kg, bringing the total to 8.11kg

a 17.86lb e-bike. this is lighter than most inexpensive non-electric road bikes - but of course we started with a five figure bike. can’t wait for the hpr40 to come to a wider range of bikes and in the USA. I think it’s likely the frames for these bikes will end up a bit heavier than the 600g ultra light ones, which may be where the 8.5 came from. still, low 18lb…

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

I watched that segment again and the translation said the BMC is a “super light unicycle …”
No wonder it only weight 8.5kg!
Then when you bolt on the front half of the bike it will weigh more than the canyon. Or the AI translator is showing its limitations.

That's the problem with AI: You never know if it mistranslated what they actually said, let the cat out of the bag on the unicycle, or just fabricated the whole dialog. For all we know, they were really talking about the weather.

 

[Chazmo]

That's the problem with AI: You never know if it mistranslated what they actually said, let the cat out of the bag on the unicycle, or just fabricated the whole dialog. For all we know, they were really talking about the weather.

rainy and hot with a touch of squid.

(from an AI that likes The Watchmen). (apologies, feeling a little silly at breakfast this morning). (not enough coffee).

 

[apctjb]

Funny story. For her 80th birthday my aunt asked if I would join her doing her favorite ride (Mt Adams loop 53miles/3500'). She rode her Pinarello with a TQ50, me my analog Emonda. She made it no problem with 40% battery capacity remaining, whereas I felt fully depleted after trying to keep up with her on her ebike! As others have mentioned the TQ was very quite (I could not hear it from a few feet away) and seem to provide a very natural assist for her. Pretty amazing.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

For her 80th birthday my aunt asked if I would join her doing her favorite ride (Mt Adams loop 53miles/3500'). She rode her Pinarello with a TQ50, me my analog Emonda. She made it no problem with 40% battery capacity remaining, whereas I felt fully depleted after trying to keep up with her on her ebike!

Please tell your aunt she's my new hero. Recently did around 3,000 ft in 30 mi on my Vado SL 1 at 77 yo. Used 73% of my 320 Wh battery and still came home totally whipped.

I'm sure her bike+rider weight was considerably less than my 104 kg, but still...

 

[apctjb]

Please tell your aunt she's my new hero. Recently did around 3,000 ft in 30 mi on my Vado SL 1 at 77 yo. Used 73% of my 320 Wh battery and still came home totally whipped.

I'm sure her bike+rider weight was considerably less than my 104 kg, but still...

I will, she will be trilled to hear that. She probably weights 50kg on a 12kg bike, so just a little lighter...

 

[Ricki]

Based on the positive reports from Yaco one month ago I purchased the Canyon Endurace CF6 with TQ40 engine which is the base model and the cheapest.
I am a 73 year old cyclist. I weigh 78 kg (net). I have been cycling for over 60 years and have approximately 2 years of experience with a bike with a Mahle X35 hub motor.
While waiting for the intervention of some other users of the new TQ40 engine, I will insert some observations after the first 700km.
I did tests with a route that had short stretches with gradients of up to 20% (clearly you are forced to use maximum assistance (red). Two observations: first of all, the bike pedals VERY WELL with the engine off (both on flat and with 3/4% gradients - I didn't feel any friction. Incomparably superior to the Mahle x35). Even if the torque is low (40nm) you can easily climb small roads with steep gradients (15-20%) (also in this case the comparison with the Mahle x35 is to the advantage of the TQ40).
On the other bike I had a GRX 400 group with a 30/46 gear ratio in the crankset and 11/42 in the sprocket set (modified by me because otherwise on steep sections I couldn't turn the pedals. The canyon instead has a 105 mechanical group with these ratios 34/50 at the front and 11/36 at the rear.
I was afraid that having MUCH less agile gears I would have problems on steep sections.luckily the enginepushes enough and you climb with less effort than before.
The weight: with my saddle (Bontrager and not standard) and Candy pedals from Crank Brother the bike weighs 12.6kg.
I confirm an incredible fluidity in pedaling that for me is superior to any other engine I have ever tried. The declared autonomy seems to me to be a reliable data: in my last ride of 125km x 2200m of altitude I used almost exclusively the eco mode with this setting Eco 100w Assistance 86% Pedaling response 30. In the end I was in "red" i.e. at 5% as highlighted by the TQ control unit positioned in the cap at the end of the handlebars.
I had doubts about the maximum power of 200wh compared to the 300 of the TQ50: fortunately even on significant slopes (over 15%) the engine assists sufficiently. Which is strange; pedaling "backwards" from a standstill encounters resistance. I'd like to understand why.
Last thing: "pairing"with the TQ App, takes a long time and never happens the first time.

 

[apctjb]

I will insert some observations after the first 700km.
I did tests with a route that had short stretches with gradients of up to 20% (clearly you are forced to use maximum assistance (red). Two observations: first of all, the bike pedals VERY WELL with the engine off (both on flat and with 3/4% gradients - I didn't feel any friction. Incomparably superior to the Mahle x35). Even if the torque is low (40nm) you can easily climb small roads with steep gradients (15-20%) (also in this case the comparison with the Mahle x35 is to the advantage of the TQ40).

Welcome and thanks for sharing your observations. Looking forward to further insights as you continue to ride your new bike.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Based on the positive reports from Yaco one month ago I purchased the Canyon Endurace CF6 with TQ40 engine which is the base model and the cheapest.
I am a 73 year old cyclist. I weigh 78 kg (net). I have been cycling for over 60 years and have approximately 2 years of experience with a bike with a Mahle X35 hub motor.
While waiting for the intervention of some other users of the new TQ40 engine, I will insert some observations after the first 700km.
I did tests with a route that had short stretches with gradients of up to 20% (clearly you are forced to use maximum assistance (red). Two observations: first of all, the bike pedals VERY WELL with the engine off (both on flat and with 3/4% gradients - I didn't feel any friction. Incomparably superior to the Mahle x35). Even if the torque is low (40nm) you can easily climb small roads with steep gradients (15-20%) (also in this case the comparison with the Mahle x35 is to the advantage of the TQ40).
On the other bike I had a GRX 400 group with a 30/46 gear ratio in the crankset and 11/42 in the sprocket set (modified by me because otherwise on steep sections I couldn't turn the pedals. The canyon instead has a 105 mechanical group with these ratios 34/50 at the front and 11/36 at the rear.
I was afraid that having MUCH less agile gears I would have problems on steep sections.luckily the enginepushes enough and you climb with less effort than before.
The weight: with my saddle (Bontrager and not standard) and Candy pedals from Crank Brother the bike weighs 12.6kg.
I confirm an incredible fluidity in pedaling that for me is superior to any other engine I have ever tried. The declared autonomy seems to me to be a reliable data: in my last ride of 125km x 2200m of altitude I used almost exclusively the eco mode with this setting Eco 100w Assistance 86% Pedaling response 30. In the end I was in "red" i.e. at 5% as highlighted by the TQ control unit positioned in the cap at the end of the handlebars.
I had doubts about the maximum power of 200wh compared to the 300 of the TQ50: fortunately even on significant slopes (over 15%) the engine assists sufficiently. Which is strange; pedaling "backwards" from a standstill encounters resistance. I'd like to understand why.
Last thing: "pairing"with the TQ App, takes a long time and never happens the first time.

Great review, where are you based Ricki? Very interested in what you say about steep hills. All sounds good. If I move on from my Vado SL this Canyon is definitely in my sights. I had wondered about swapping out the chainset for a sub compact to help with the steep hills here, my Mahle/Spesh SL1 motor runs much better now I've got the gearing lowered to 38 x 11/46 and I don't miss the high end so I did wonder how the TQ40 would play with that out of the box fairly higher gearing. Please continue updates as you discover more about the bike and any photos you take do chuck them up for a look see.

 

[Yako]

Great review, where are you based Ricki? Very interested in what you say about steep hills. All sounds good. If I move on from my Vado SL this Canyon is definitely in my sights. I had wondered about swapping out the chainset for a sub compact to help with the steep hills here, my Mahle/Spesh SL1 motor runs much better now I've got the gearing lowered to 38 x 11/46 and I don't miss the high end so I did wonder how the TQ40 would play with that out of the box fairly higher gearing. Please continue updates as you discover more about the bike and any photos you take do chuck them up for a look see.

I’m not 100% Rás but I don’t think the Praxxis chainset is swappable, so it would have to be done at the back alone. Currently in the UK, but when I get back, I was going to make a short about trying to climb a 38% hill on the Canyon. If I can do that (but frankly it’s incredibly unlikely!) but IF I can, it should prove that the gearing provided is enough for anyone!

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I’m not 100% Rás but I don’t think the Praxxis chainset is swappable, so it would have to be done at the back alone. Currently in the UK, but when I get back, I was going to make a short about trying to climb a 38% hill on the Canyon. If I can do that (but frankly it’s incredibly unlikely!) but IF I can, it should prove that the gearing provided is enough for anyone!

Re Praxis Oh that's a shame! I wonder can you swap out individual chain rings? Probably not, to go smaller. It was easy enough with the Praxis on my Vado SL as it has a common BCD, and simpler to do as it's a one by.

The equivalent Ridley TQ40 bike has the option of a one by as it's more gravel orientated. That's the only other brand I've seen so far with the TQ40, but somehow I prefer the Canyon spec. There was rumours of a BMC, but I can't see anything online and lets face it, a BMC version ain't going to be cheap! Lets see if any more brands get on board over the next year.

38 percent and with that gearing is... ambitious!! I have 2 hills that are north of 25 percent (a lot of 18-25 ones) and I can just about do them but there is a lot zig zagging/stalling danger involved! One has banned cars because of the gradient but is used in some of the annual Dartmoor charity rides (The sadists) and the other is hardly used so the tarmac is falling apart, like your hidden Catalonia roads.

The main advantage of lowering the gearing with 'weak' mid drives is by being able to continue to spin on the steep ramps rather then grind it helps the motor function. So it actually has the effect of getting more power from the motor as it isn't under such pressure (which it is when grinding) and it seems much happier, now this little 30nm motor can get up nearly anything.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I’m not 100% Rás but I don’t think the Praxxis chainset is swappable, so it would have to be done at the back alone. Currently in the UK, but when I get back, I was going to make a short about trying to climb a 38% hill on the Canyon. If I can do that (but frankly it’s incredibly unlikely!) but IF I can, it should prove that the gearing provided is enough for anyone!

Actually - brain working slowly this morning - If I could fit something like an 11-42 on the Canyon, it would give me a very low 34 x 42 granny gear or approx 21/22 gear inches which would get up anything I imagine. Not sure how such a big cassette would work with a 2x but worth investigating.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

The main advantage of lowering the gearing with 'weak' mid drives is by being able to continue to spin on the steep ramps rather then grind it helps the motor function. So it actually has the effect of getting more power from the motor as it isn't under such pressure (which it is when grinding) and it seems much happier, now this little 30nm motor can get up nearly anything.

Exactly. My low-power Vado SL 1 and I both function best at 85-95 rpm. Lowering the 1x gearing to 22-99 gear-inches makes that cadence possible on all but the steepest local hills (about 20%).

 

[Yako]

Reading these last two posts really has me wondering why bike brands are only slowly changing gearing options on their e-road bikes. The last Gain I tried has a 12s 11-30 cassette with a compact crank. How many riders, now needing e-assist, would be happy with that? (Other than those in Denmark, Holland, flat US states etc - and what if they wanted to vacation in hilly places?) They seem to forget or ignore that in this sector, unlike e-mtb, riders are generally older/heavier/more incapacitated in some way (hence the ads depicting lithe youths haring up a mountain. Those guys wouldn’t be seen dead on an e-bike!)

 

[Rás Cnoic]

Reading these last two posts really has me wondering why bike brands are only slowly changing gearing options on their e-road bikes. The last Gain I tried has a 12s 11-30 cassette with a compact crank. How many riders, now needing e-assist, would be happy with that? (Other than those in Denmark, Holland, flat US states etc - and what if they wanted to vacation in hilly places?) They seem to forget or ignore that in this sector, unlike e-mtb, riders are generally older/heavier/more incapacitated in some way (hence the ads depicting lithe youths haring up a mountain. Those guys wouldn’t be seen dead on an e-bike!)

Spot on. There's a kind of puritan thinking with road bike brands, we don't dare go lower, that would be weak, you'll just have to muscle up that hill as God intended...

 

[stompandgo]

I see it the opposite way. Road bike riders don't want to be seen on an e-bike. The more stealth, the better. They want their e-bike looking like their analog road bike as much as possible. The assist is for when riding gets aggressive, not tooling along. Strava and all.

 

[Rás Cnoic]

I see it the opposite way. Road bike riders don't want to be seen on an e-bike. The more stealth, the better. They want their e-bike looking like their analog road bike as much as possible. The assist is for when riding gets aggressive, not tooling along. Strava and all.

Maybe that too. You are right about roadies for sure. Because I live in a hilly area I guess I'm hyper aware of gearing.

 

[Jeremy McCreary]

If you have a low-power ebike with a high cadence sweet spot, and it happens to match your own sweet spot, as in my case, then you have a double incentive to tweak your gearing to be able to stay in that sweet spot as much as possible in your own terrain.

It would be nice for manufactures to build some affordable "tweakability" into their drivetains for this purpose. Or better yet, to offer gearing options at purchase, as @Yako suggested.

Luckily, all I needed was a smaller chainring (44t to 40t), $80 total. But those who need to lower bottom gears only will need new cassettes in 1x drivetrains. If you also need a new derailleur and chain to accommodate that, you're starting to add big bucks to your cost of ownership at the high component costs typical of e-road bikes. All of which could be avoided with a range of gearing options at purchase.

 

[Ricki]

Great review, where are you based Ricki? Very interested in what you say about steep hills. All sounds good. If I move on from my Vado SL this Canyon is definitely in my sights. I had wondered about swapping out the chainset for a sub compact to help with the steep hills here, my Mahle/Spesh SL1 motor runs much better now I've got the gearing lowered to 38 x 11/46 and I don't miss the high end so I did wonder how the TQ40 would play with that out of the box fairly higher gearing. Please continue updates as you discover more about the bike and any photos you take do chuck them up for a look see.

Hi ras,I'm writing from Modena, a small Italian city near Bologna.
I would like to underline that when I talk about very steep climbs I am referring to fairly short sections with gradients of 20 to 25percent.
As Yaco wrote, I absolutely don't think that slopes of 30 or even 38percent can be overcome with this engine....at least at my age and with the wattage I can develop.
I follow your forum with interest to understand if anyone has tried to change the praxis crankset or alternatively if it is possible and how a larger cassette would work (for example 42 teeth)