mid-drive torque-sensing FS options

[rtp]

I’ve currently got a Eunorau FAT-HS with BBSHD. Other than zero support from Eunorau, it’s overall OK but heavy and am not a huge fan of the binary-ish nature of the BBHSD power and the front fork is utter crap spring-only and low travel. My wife has a Gazelle Bosch T9 Medeo.

I’m 50, 6’ and 225# in so-so shape but wanting to get more exercise via the ebike. Have ridden motorcycles on and off-road since teen years on and off - not competitively, just fun. I don’t have aspirations to start doing crazy downhill acrobatics, but we have a fair amount of various parks and trails, and I’m not afraid to get bikes into the air (a bit anyways ). I also routinely do ride on the roads with my wife.

That probably best describes what I’ve been looking for - the equivalent of a ‘dual sport’ as an ebike - with the compromises that entails. I don’t need ‘the best’ eMTB nor the best road/commuter, but something that can be passable at each for my purposes.

I’ve been all over the place from building my own to a variety of models from China or not. Looking to decide in the next month and get it ordered at least..

Right now, I’ve been considering either an M600 or M620/Ultra based-bike. It seems like all of these pretty much wind up at the 60-70lb mark, with the variations in carbon fiber vs Aluminum, engine and components accounting for the range along with battery size. If the Euro motors had true 500W nominal with e.g. 1kW peaks, I might consider one of them, and may eventually wind up with one once I’m in better shape - will see. My current BBHSD is reprogrammed, for 9 levels, with 14aH battery - I usually ride on level 2-3 of 9, and at least for on the road, we’ve been riding 12-16 mile loops but looking to go further.

I suppose I am wondering if current/shipping today M600 motors with 14.6 or later firmware are effectively ‘decent enough’ knowing the ability to program them is limited (although I am hoping Innotrace and WW eventually offer a controller for them..), as something like the Frey M600, or equivalent, at least shaves some overall pounds off the bike… ??

I’m also curious if the Ultras default programming has improved, as right now I’m considering the innotrace/WW Archon controller as a ‘really should have’ while I can’t get a response from Innotrace on if they will ship a motor and controller to the US, and WW is understandably busy trying to shrink their full bike queue down and is not at this time offering an ultra + archon motor to be purchased standalone.

I don’t ‘need’ a carbon fiber frame. it’s only upside for me is a few lbs weight savings, which isn’t nothing, but it also makes it near impossible to add a simple rack or kickstand. I’m unsure the current common offerings even allow attaching a water bottle holder, which for my real world, well - is kind of lacking. Yes, clickstand exists. I guess I could do that + a lighter weight seat-post small rack, or backpack, but I want a water bottle on the frame somewhere at minimum as I’ll already be needing to put a lock into my backpack for some of our trips with a carbon fiber frame.

FWIW, if the ‘Hydra Black’ were offered with an Aluminum frame (kickstand, can add small rack, water bottle mount) for around $5K, I’d probably go for it. As it is, rough pricing out of a ‘build my own’ with good components(e.g. DVO Diamond or Manitou fork, ~$500 rear shock, etc.) comes in a bit under $5K USD although am still shopping around as well as working out building a fat tire 4” vs 27.5x3“ (not sure of tire choices for all-arounder 2.8-3” tires, but don’t need full knobby) and on some of the components.

Stuff I’ve considered so far: (A lot!)

• DIY from Dengfu frame (can’t get E10, and Biktrix locked down a similar frame for their new Monte Capro bike (starting at $6K - at which point I’d go Hydra for another $1K with my options..) - somewhere around $5K, but would really prefer the Innotrace controller…
• Hydra - with minimal options it’s at $7K and still no kickstand, but will have the archon controller and it’s still 60# or more.
• Frey M600 - ok components, heavy plus possibly an even longer wait than Hydra. Still considering this one honestly depending on current state of factory M600 programming.
• Luna X1 - wait to come back into stock or pre-order status and ask for OEM firmware. Unsure if worth Ludicrous option with their programming at all, no idea on what the new price will be once back in stock. 48v
• Nireeka Nyx - company/support seems questionable, bike seems OK overall depending on M600 programming. Specced out it winds up around $4800. 48v
• Dengfu full bike - seems like their full bikes are offering pretty low spec components all around, not sure if it’s worth the $ (~$4200)
• Frey EX or AM1000 - 48v, decent overall components, long wait, heavier.
• Biktrix Ultra FS Pro
• Sondors Rockstar - Seems like M600 but it’s still a fat pig if the 83# weight is real. Not a fan of not listing actual components, e.g. not even sure if it’s M600 or M620 motor, let alone the suspension and other components. Priced low but assuming I’d wind up replacing unknown components..
• M2S all terrain pro - 48v, no-brand Mozo fork, ok price of $3800.
• Eunorau specter - ~$4K, basically my current bike with an Ultra motor, more appropriate front fork. Expect no support b/c Eunorau… Heavy but not as heavy as rockstar..
• Luna Apollo, Apex - who knows when, if ever, they’re order-able again?
• Bikes Direct HAL eBoost M600 - I actually kept coming back to look at this one, at 50#…but finally saw for whatever it’s a 43v system…

Any thoughts or comments welcome. I’d LIKE to be on it sometime before summer, and will ride my current bike until then.

 

[dodgeman]

Just a general comment, get a bike designed for mountain biking and just accept the limitations it has as a road bike. The fact that it’s an e bike will make up some of the drag and other negatives it has as a road bike.

 

[rtp]

Just a general comment, get a bike designed for mountain biking and just accept the limitations it has as a road bike. The fact that it’s an e bike will make up some of the drag and other negatives it has as a road bike.

Yeah, you can probably see that’s where I think I’ve wound up just based on the list of ‘options’ I’ve considered… or did you mean e.g. only go carbon/chase lightest options only?

Any help on roadable-ish trail/road tires in 27.5x2.8-3”?

 

[DaveMatthews]

This pretty much describes me and my Giant Stance E+2.
I hear great things about the Johnny Watts tires as well.

 

[AHicks]

Yeah, you can probably see that’s where I think I’ve wound up just based on the list of ‘options’ I’ve considered… or did you mean e.g. only go carbon/chase lightest options only?

Any help on roadable-ish trail/road tires in 27.5x2.8-3”?

A few things- I'm 6'2/315/and 70 but in good health and ride daily. Into DIY big time, and have a similar lifetime experience on cycles of all types.

First, I've found there's no perfect bike for my purposes, which prioritizes good ride on mostly hard/paved surfaces. Instead of perfect, I've been looking to see how close I can get with a production bike, with the idea of fixing what I don't like about it. That in mind-

Using an aftermarket KT-22a controller and display, you CAN give a 500w-750w geared hub motor a fairly good poke of 1000w without hurting a thing. They get downright sporty on that kind of power. Noteworthy regarding the KT setup, their PAS system is very user definable, and uses a power based system where speed has nothing to do with what's going on, making it second to none PAS system in my experience. You just need to maintain some common sense regarding the use of that occasional 1000w "poke".

In that same light, I get what you're saying (big time) regarding pogo stick front forks. Those can be easily replaced by some inexpensive hyd. front forks (125.-150.).

Tires - Check out Schwalbe's Super Moto-X balloon tires. They can be run at fairly low pressure while maintaining outstanding rolling resistance. I've converted all of my city bikes to 27.5 x 2.4" and an Ultra powered ex fatty to 27.5 x 2.8". I've tried a bunch of tires in the last few years ($$$$), and these are the hands down winner - with nothing even close in my experience.....

Last, my latest project bike went on sale for about 500 less than what I paid for mine just recently. Think "solid bones", and yes the 27.5x 2.4" tires JUST fit!

Sport

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I have 3 of these now, the 1 Sport and the wife's 2 Flows and all 3 have been prepared identically. -Al

 

[dodgeman]

The biggest reason I made the comment about set it up for mountain biking is I have Trek Verve+3 for me and the wife. I’m not sure if they are considered a hybrid, commuter or what, the lines are kind of blurred. They are terrible as anything except a road bike or very smooth trail bike. There is no front suspension and the suspension seat post is not adequate for anything rough. They aren’t even good for gravel roads but they have larger tires compared to a true road bike, so I can ride on gravel, just not well.

 

[AHicks]

The biggest reason I made the comment about set it up for mountain biking is I have Trek Verve+3 for me and the wife. I’m not sure if they are considered a hybrid, commuter or what, the lines are kind of blurred. They are terrible as anything except a road bike or very smooth trail bike. There is no front suspension and the suspension seat post is not adequate for anything rough. They aren’t even good for gravel roads but they have larger tires compared to a true road bike, so I can ride on gravel, just not well.

That Trek experience, using "lessons learned" will be a big leg up on where to focus your attention when it comes time for the next bike.....

The biggest thing I learned from my first e-bike (other than I didn't care for it being a 29'er), was that I was going to be in this for the long game. It was a tough leap of faith to spend the money for the first e-bike, but it wasn't long after that purchase I started shopping for the next one.....

 

[rtp]

A few things- I'm 6'2/315/and 70 but in good health and ride daily. Into DIY big time, and have a similar lifetime experience on cycles of all types.

First, I've found there's no perfect bike for my purposes, which prioritizes good ride on mostly hard/paved surfaces. Instead of perfect, I've been looking to see how close I can get with a production bike, with the idea of fixing what I don't like about it. That in mind-

Yep, its all a compromise with one bike. I’ve had a BMW thumper airborne as a supposed ‘dual sport’ motorcycle, and will just leave that one at its the total opposite of a KTM or DRZ even - much better cruising and on road than off.

Using an aftermarket KT-22a controller and display, you CAN give a 500w-750w geared hub motor a fairly good poke of 1000w without hurting a thing. They get downright sporty on that kind of power. Noteworthy regarding the KT setup, their PAS system is very user definable, and uses a power based system where speed has nothing to do with what's going on, making it second to none PAS system in my experience. You just need to maintain some common sense regarding the use of that occasional 1000w "poke".

In that same light, I get what you're saying (big time) regarding pogo stick front forks. Those can be easily replaced by some inexpensive hyd. front forks (125.-150.).

A rear hub is the opposite direction of where I’d like to go at this point. Looks like the KT PAS system uses ~10-12 magnets or sensors but is still cadence-based from the looks of it.

Tires - Check out Schwalbe's Super Moto-X balloon tires. They can be run at fairly low pressure while maintaining outstanding rolling resistance. I've converted all of my city bikes to 27.5 x 2.4" and an Ultra powered ex fatty to 27.5 x 2.8". I've tried a bunch of tires in the last few years ($$$$), and these are the hands down winner - with nothing even close in my experience.....

Those look fine for road, not so sure on dirt or gravel.
Their Marathon Plus MTB or Marathon GT 365 look more passable for dual purpose, but still looking.

 

[rtp]

The biggest reason I made the comment about set it up for mountain biking is I have Trek Verve+3 for me and the wife. I’m not sure if they are considered a hybrid, commuter or what, the lines are kind of blurred. They are terrible as anything except a road bike or very smooth trail bike. There is no front suspension and the suspension seat post is not adequate for anything rough. They aren’t even good for gravel roads but they have larger tires compared to a true road bike, so I can ride on gravel, just not well.

Got it. Too much dirt bike/motorcycle in my blood to not have front and rear suspension, although I did consider trying a front fork only/hard tail before I picked up the current bike. Of course the rear shock and linkage adds weight but hard to give up full suspension once you have it IMO.

 

[rtp]

That Trek experience, using "lessons learned" will be a big leg up on where to focus your attention when it comes time for the next bike.....

The biggest thing I learned from my first e-bike (other than I didn't care for it being a 29'er), was that I was going to be in this for the long game. It was a tough leap of faith to spend the money for the first e-bike, but it wasn't long after that purchase I started shopping for the next one.....

Yep, I’m there now. Pretty much figured I’d learn what I like(FS, power) and don’t(power delivery, cadence sensor, crap forks, crap derailleur/shifter(already replaced), weight) from the first one and try to do ‘better‘ on the next…but the FS torque-sensing bikes are $ enough I’d like to make sure I’ll keep the next at least a few years..fingers crossed anyways!

 

[AHicks]

2 things. First, all cadence systems are not created equally. If you can find one that's POWER based, you'll see they work much better than those that are SPEED based. Find a POWER based system that's user configurable, and you've found a system that's tough to beat. That pretty much describes the KT system AND the system used with the Bafang BBS** mid drives, including the Ultra. Of course the Ultra takes that a step further with the torque sensing. Which brings up the second point.

Bafang's factory programming pretty much sucks when it comes to a few things. Low speed control would be a big one, but it doesn't stop there.

If you decide to go with a Bafang BBS**/Ultra mid drive, look into the UART based controller "programmability" and the newer CAN BUS programmability. Make sure you understand the differences, and the fact there is no software available (not yet anyway) to allow the end user programming of the CAN BUS systems. You want to know which you are getting!

 

[TrevorB]

For MTBing you can't go past class1 middrive FS eMTBs. All quality bikes will use lower european class motors because that is biggest market. USA 750W market is just to small for main MTB companies to bother. When comes to FS eMTBs quality of suspension is everything, you don't need top spec bike but will definitely be disappointed by entry level.

I bought 2nd set of wheels for my eMTB for commuting and touring, don't have to be high quality as not going offroad.

 

[rtp]

2 things. First, all cadence systems are not created equally. If you can find one that's POWER based, you'll see they work much better than those that are SPEED based. Find a POWER based system that's user configurable, and you've found a system that's tough to beat. That pretty much describes the KT system AND the system used with the Bafang BBS** mid drives, including the Ultra. Of course the Ultra takes that a step further with the torque sensing. Which brings up the second point.

Bafang's factory programming pretty much sucks when it comes to a few things. Low speed control would be a big one, but it doesn't stop there.

If you decide to go with a Bafang BBS**/Ultra mid drive, look into the UART based controller "programmability" and the newer CAN BUS programmability. Make sure you understand the differences, and the fact there is no software available (not yet anyway) to allow the end user programming of the CAN BUS systems. You want to know which you are getting!

Looks like at least some Ultra bikes shipping now are still UART, but who knows how long that’s the case for?
I looked into buying an Ultra from Innotrace as WW doesn’t even list accessories and parts, let alone motors and controllers on their current site…most likely to focus on delivering full bikes. What I don’t know is if the latest Ultras, including CANBUS, have new firmware/any improvements..

I have the cable and software for my current BBHSD bike..

Still considering an M600 bike as well, although I wish WW/Innotrace or someone would offer a replacement controller for it. AFAIK, all M600s are CANBUS, but at least there’s some consensus that firmware 14.6 is generally decent. I have no doubt there are some other controller options, although it seems to be anyone’s guess if e.g. Phaserunner and the like are ever back in stock, and I’m not looking for a science project - want more time riding, less time troubleshooting.

I’m doing a lot of back and forth but pricing out options from build from parts in both AL or carbon fiber, M600 vs M620, Alibaba bike up to what looks like it would amount to ~$7K Hydra. Will probably go through all my collected info, parts, prices this weekend or Thanksgiving and make a decision anyways.

 

[rtp]

For MTBing you can't go past class1 middrive FS eMTBs. All quality bikes will use lower european class motors because that is biggest market. USA 750W market is just to small for main MTB companies to bother. When comes to FS eMTBs quality of suspension is everything, you don't need top spec bike but will definitely be disappointed by entry level.

I bought 2nd set of wheels for my eMTB for commuting and touring, don't have to be high quality as not going offroad.

Yeah, the EU has a definite market share lead, along with their inane (to me) regulations and 250W/speed limits. If I build it myself or spec it, looking at DVO Diamond, Yari, … as fork options, RockShox Super Deluxe+ to Fox X2 for rear. Not entry level but I’m also not seeing crazy downhills or huge launches in my near future either..

It’s similar enough to when I was looking for the ‘right’ dual-sport motorcycle… ideal is always two focused purpose-built bikes, but that also means you’’re trailering vs riding to the dirt.

Why are you saying ‘for MYBing you cant go past class 1’? I can in my state…

 

[AHicks]

Regarding the M620, the CAN BUS equipped bikes are drawing the same complaints the original UART programming was drawing, so I'm going to suggest there's no improvements that have been made.

I'm not near as on top of the M600 as I am the bigger motors, but from what I've read they do have a few updated programs available. That's kinda how we started early on with the bigger UART based stuff. What I discovered while playing with that stuff is that the changes were based on the designer's idea of what consists of a good plan. Great idea, but unless your requirements were the same as theirs, there wasn't much in the way of a practical gain to be had when it comes to YOUR requirements. For instance, I'm about low speed control, and good economy/response at lower speeds. I rarely use PAS 4 or 5, and speeds of 14-15mph while under power are about as fast as I ever go (usually slower). Most of the available programming I saw early on from "experts" was for very aggressive low speed performance and pretty much wide open throttle from there. That's the kind of stuff I could care less about.

My point is, on the preprogrammed/update packages, you may not like what's been done there any more than the standard Bafang programming.

Good hunting! -Al

 

[rtp]

Regarding the M620, the CAN BUS equipped bikes are drawing the same complaints the original UART programming was drawing, so I'm going to suggest there's no improvements that have been made.

I'm not near as on top of the M600 as I am the bigger motors, but from what I've read they do have a few updated programs available. That's kinda how we started early on with the bigger UART based stuff. What I discovered while playing with that stuff is that the changes were based on the designer's idea of what consists of a good plan. Great idea, but unless your requirements were the same as theirs, there wasn't much in the way of a practical gain to be had when it comes to YOUR requirements. For instance, I'm about low speed control, and good economy/response at lower speeds. I rarely use PAS 4 or 5, and speeds of 14-15mph while under power are about as fast as I ever go (usually slower). Most of the available programming I saw early on from "experts" was for very aggressive low speed performance and pretty much wide open throttle from there. That's the kind of stuff I could care less about.

My point is, on the preprogrammed/update packages, you may not like what's been done there any more than the standard Bafang programming.

Good hunting! -Al

Sadly, agree on the bolded part. I suppose it's relative as early(-ier) firmware for the M600 and others (BBS*) were so poor that anything was an improvement.
I certainly wish everything was left as UART to leave user-accessible programming, but I don't think there are simple paths there for the M600 at all at this point, and assuming a CANBUS Ultra/M620 - primarily the Innotrace controller or similar, at least in line with 'somewhat plug and play' - am I missing options there?

Similar on the rarely use PAS4/5, although I have my BBSHD set for 9 levels - I routinely use 2-3 on road, 2-5 off, and pretty much never touch the top half, which basically equates to PAS levels 1-2 and occasionally 3. Part of this is of course battery consumption, which has me considering the M600 as still a viable candidate at a bit lower power, although I'm unsure of relative efficiencies between M600 and M620/Ultra. Which of course all still comes back to - sure wish Bafang would stop their path of locking out user settings..

 

[AHicks]

Sadly, agree on the bolded part. I suppose it's relative as early(-ier) firmware for the M600 and others (BBS*) were so poor that anything was an improvement.
I certainly wish everything was left as UART to leave user-accessible programming, but I don't think there are simple paths there for the M600 at all at this point, and assuming a CANBUS Ultra/M620 - primarily the Innotrace controller or similar, at least in line with 'somewhat plug and play' - am I missing options there?

Similar on the rarely use PAS4/5, although I have my BBSHD set for 9 levels - I routinely use 2-3 on road, 2-5 off, and pretty much never touch the top half, which basically equates to PAS levels 1-2 and occasionally 3. Part of this is of course battery consumption, which has me considering the M600 as still a viable candidate at a bit lower power, although I'm unsure of relative efficiencies between M600 and M620/Ultra. Which of course all still comes back to - sure wish Bafang would stop their path of locking out user settings..

I THINK the Innotrace option requires a Uart motor or controller to convert, but I could be wrong.

If I were looking for a new bike today, whether it's a collection of parts ordered separately that I assemble, or a production bike, I'd be between a rock and a hard spot. I would NOT order a CAN BUS motor, period, end of story. I believe there will be an option to program them at some point, but as I'm totally spoiled by what I have with the Frey "Smooth" program installed on my Ultra, any CAN BUS motor would sit collecting dust...... I already have a bike doing that!

 

[rtp]

I THINK the Innotrace option requires a Uart motor or controller to convert, but I could be wrong.

If I were looking for a new bike today, whether it's a collection of parts ordered separately that I assemble, or a production bike, I'd be between a rock and a hard spot. I would NOT order a CAN BUS motor, period, end of story. I believe there will be an option to program them at some point, but as I'm totally spoiled by what I have with the Frey "Smooth" program installed on my Ultra, any CAN BUS motor would sit collecting dust...... I already have a bike doing that!

Yeah, likewise I THINK it's about the controller to display interface that is CANBUS and the motor is more or less unchanged, but not sure. Was a developer in former life, including some embedded work, but not intimate with this stuff by any means. I'm still hopeful availability for the Innotrace/WW controller extends to the M600 as well as becoming more available for the 620 as a motor/controller purchase, so it's all some level of gambling right now, although I could TRY to request a UART M620 as an option, maybe only one <until some future controller>.. sigh.

 

[rtp]

Sill sorting options - a few complete bikes with reasonable-ish upgrades from Alibaba, frame/motor/battery from Ali, with only the Frey M600, Biktrix Monte Capro or Hydra of interest from US or CAN shops. The Biktrix is a bit overpriced for the specs (had found the frame some time back but locked in as Biktrix only, presumablr for N America at least..). Have emailed to ask if any of the Montes may be UART motors…

Meanwhile, I did a ~16 mile ride with my wife today, mixture of light single-track and cycle paths, a mile of roads. I was intentionally running PAS 2 of 9 95% of the time and up-gearing so wasn’t ghost-pedaling the BBHSD. I was also monitoring the motor assistance on th display, which never passed 500W. I’ve been back and forth on specs for some time, and right now, the ‘perfect’ bike for me doesn’t exist. I’m feeling a (programmable) M600 (not Ultra), light(ish), ~150mm travel FS with decent components, and 17aH battery would hit my sweet spot. Some have mentioned this elsewhere I’m sure, but 8-9 speeds would also IMO be just fine with a clutched derailleur. I may give a Box 8 or 9s groupset a try while sorting or ordering and waiting for the next bike.

I may also bite on a set of 27.5x3 wheels/tires for my fat bike depending on Black Friday or used findings.
Most Ultra offerings add weight I don’t need, with power I’d like but really don’t need - my BBHSD is fun at PAS 5-9 or via throttle but also eats battery like no tomorrow.

If a used Luna X1 non-Ludicrous-option with OE firmware to pop up, I’d probably take it, upgrade suspension and groupset and wait for an Archon/Innotrace option down the line.

To be continued…

 

[Haystacks]

If you're handy with tools etc give melody a shout at dengfu, e22 might be of interest.... you could potentially DIY in 6 weeks if you can get parts together.