Regen Braking for e-bikes ?

[Deleted member 4210]

A nice little video from Evelo, putting in layman's terms why it is simply not practical.

https://www.evelo.com/blog/why-dont...viyo&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter

(when you have a 5000 lb vehicle, and all sorts of space to work with, the physics of it can make sense on hybrid vehicles. I have it on my Toyota HighLander Hybrid. On 50 lb ebikes, not so much.)

Thanks Evelo. I get asked this question by new to the ebike world customers, more frequently than I ever imagined.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Now to put more fuel into the fire of confusion, a new geared hub motor loses it's free wheel advantage in favor of a clutchless (more durable) design for regenerative braking and with advanced programmable steady state when coasting (simulating a freewheel).

https://electrek.co/2019/07/10/grin-tech-unveils-gmac-clutchless-geared-hub-motor/

Here's also a video on the tunable freewheel (virtual electronic freewheeling) of the GMAC.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

GMAC's argument focuses on longevity of the brakes and safer stopping especially when going downhills on cargo ebikes. Of course, who wouldn't want a free battery recharge while doing all those things?

 

[Feliz]

My BionX powered Elby has regen and I don't remember ever turning it on. Nice feature if you only ride downhill.

 

[Trail Cruiser]

My BionX powered Elby has regen and I don't remember ever turning it on. Nice feature if you only ride downhill.

It's automatic once you touch the brakes, it operates in the background seamlessly.

 

[Feliz]

Good to know, it can also be set on the display can't it?

 

[Trail Cruiser]

Good to know, it can also be set on the display can't it?

I don't know if Elby has carried over the Bionx's manual regen mode function but I'm pretty sure that the regen is intergrated with the brake lever.

Edit/addendum;

Elby also has manual regen setting. Check the 13:00 min mark of the video below.

 

[Feliz]

Thanks TC

 

[AHicks]

From what little I've managed to learn about the GMAC, it's not just regen they're talking about, it's variable regen. acting as an aux brake. You can control how much braking/regen. at any given time and literally stop your bike with it. This vs. the regen I know, available with some direct drive hubs. That's something you can feel holding your speed in check on a long hill, but nothing you would dream of being able to use to stop for a stop sign. The difference I'm sure is due to the fact that the MAC's 5:1 gear reduction has the armature spinning 5 times as fast as the typical direct drive. They're putting that extra rpm to work, harnessing it as braking power.

But to the point, typical "regen" is not something a flat lander is going to be paying much attention to. In an area with long rolling hills though, it's pretty handy, helping to hold your speed in check. I doubt most of us could measure what it's putting back into the battery though!

 

[harryS]

Full time regen on a geared motor? Might be good for a bike used as a tomato cart, or maybe a pedicab in San Francisco or any town with big hills. Good for the working rider, but not for someone out riding for exercise/fun. Gotta fly down those hills.

 

[AHicks]

Though I start getting nervous around 25mph, I'm all for a nice sprint. BUT some hills are just too much when coming down them while free wheeling, especially the ones with stop signs at the bottom.....

Higher capacity battery can't slow/stop you or help control speed. I wouldn't call regen a gimmick at all - unless you are strictly thinking about the charge it's putting back into the battery. Selling that as a feature IS a gimmick!

 

[AHicks]

What do you mean? Isn't that what brakes are for?

Have a truck driver explain to you the reason he uses his engine to slow his vehicle, or to control his speed going through down hill sections of the mountains - using the rear wheels only.

Obviously bikes are much smaller and lighter, but the reasons to justify regen, or the GMAC, are very similar.

If you don't think it's worth the time/trouble/money, that's your opinion, but it doesn't change the fact other might not agree with you. The developer of the GMAC for instance, obviously doesn't agree with you. Betting the concept would make more sense to you if you lived in an area where you could use something like this more frequently.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Adding more braking power to the rear to save the front pads? I dont think that would work, although somebody might prove me wrong.

Regen can be activated from any lever, front or rear.

I have had over 20,000 miles on the Stromer ST2 platform and I can say Regen certainly helps, not by a lot but it certainly helps.
It adds 3-4 miles for every battery charge (so, 3-4 miles extra for every 60-65 miles) and that adds up over time and I had to replace my brake pads only every 6000 miles or so. If you feather the levers gently, it activates regen without engaging the calipers. Over 3-4 year period, all of this adds up.

If you know how to engage regen (many bikes come with variable regen modes), it is certainly useful in city traffic.

It doesn't add a lot of complexity, only few wires and correcting them to the right controller port. People think DD hubs are inefficient and that is because they are not versed in using the system properly or they have a crappy system. My ST2 would average 60 miles for every 814 whr charge and that is very decent considering the high speeds.

Regen is especially useful on Cargo bikes, commuter bikes and bikes used in hilly terrain.

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

To me, regen doesn't have much of practical benefits.

How many miles do you have on a DD hub E-bike with Regen feature?

I still think regen is a bit of waste for ebikes.

That is correct, this is your thinking.

Bionx for example, is already out of business.

BionX is out business not because of lack of demand but because its parent company that was supplying parts to GM went out of business.

If it was so good, more company would have done it.

That is why companies like GRIN worked with MAC to bring back this feature.

Direct drive motor is generally inefficient for daily riding, eats a lot more electricity.

Again, how many miles do you have on an E-bike with DD hub? care to share some pictures and details?

 

[Ravi Kempaiah]

Maybe Giant, Trek, Yamaha, Specialized, Shimano, Panasonic will all move towards direct drive hub motor with regen.

That's right. They will also release 1000w motors to compete with Juiced HyperFat.

 

[AHicks]

Okay I ride motorcycles, obviously I do downshift for really long downhill.

The reason why some people say engine braking is better is because so that you don't cause heat fade, which happened frequently with drum brakes back in 1970s or 80s.

However, I have never felt like engine brake was needed on my ebike. And yes I do go down lengthy downhill all the time.

I can just lightly hold the brakes and coast slow if I need to, adding engine brake? Well no thanks, especially for added price and weight.

Timpo, there is no extra weight with regen. It's just a small circuit and a couple of tiny switches. Less than an ounce I would imagine.....

 

[AHicks]

That's right. They will also release 1000w motors to compete with Juiced HyperFat.

I have a 1500w DD now, and below 15-20mph, and in MHO it would be no contest. A 750w+ gear drive will just smoke it! I don't see 1000w DD motors competing with gear drives. Not at legal speeds anyway. Exception being the DD being fed a diet of 52v+ and 40-50a.

 

[AHicks]

Timpo - OK finally got your point. I was comparing all else being equal on the regen, you were figuring a gear drive hub w/regen vs. DD. That's not always the case though. This new MAC12t doesn't look an awful lot lighter than a 1000 or 1500w DD hub.....

 

[AHicks]

I don't have any pictures, but since you asked the question I have approx 10 miles on direct drive (Stromer ST2).

Maybe you're right, I don't know.

Maybe Giant, Trek, Yamaha, Specialized, Shimano, Panasonic will all move towards direct drive hub motor with regen.

But my personal opinion is, I doubt it.

I have to agree. I doubt they'll work towards direct drive, but it would be no surprise at all for something like Grin's GMAC or something similar with regen to virtually take over the market. That's an outstanding concept to my way of thinking.

 

[AHicks]

Gear Drive vs. DD - Let's go with a 3 lb weight difference just for the sake of this discussion. Again, IMHO, when you add the weight of a bike and rider (in my case 365 lbs total), in the grand scheme of things, how much difference do you think that 3lbs is going to make in a bikes performance? If there were a cool new toy that weighed 3 lbs that would enhance your motor cycles performance, would that be worth it?

Mid drive taking over? Not a chance. The hub drives are MUCH MUCH simpler and less expensive to build. They aren't going anywhere, but they aren't going to be taking over any time real soon.....